Amplification suggestions for Yamaha NS1000M

[dionisio]

Hello,

I recently got my hands on a lovely pair of Yamaha NS1000Ms, and am currently using a Primare A30.1 integrated with them - I'm not unhappy with the sound, but feel it could maybe do with an extra bit of warmth in the mid-range and treble.

Should I be looking at valves for these speakers? Will I need to avoid lower powered SET amps if I'm to retain the bass? New to the exciting world of valves, you see. Perhaps a MOSFET design is a good halfway house?

I'll be listening to stuff like Radiohead, Arcade Fire, The Beatles, Fleetwood Mac, Aphex Twin, M83 and Flying Lotus.

Efficiency of these speakers is rated at 90db. Source is M2Tech Young Dac fed by a Squeezebox Touch.

I'd be looking to spend 1.5-2k maximum. Recommendations and experiences with these speakers would be greatly appreciated.

[dionisio]

For instance - would a Croft Micro 25 and maybe a pair of monoblocks do the job??

[Ali Tait]

I very much liked the sound with a WAD 300b PP amp, so I'd say a decent PP valve amp would fit the bill nicely, and should give you the sound you are after.

[WAD62]

I'll be listening to stuff like Radiohead, Arcade Fire, The Beatles, Fleetwood Mac, Aphex Twin, M83 and Flying Lotus.

Efficiency of these speakers is rated at 90db. Source is M2Tech Young Dac fed by a Squeezebox Touch.


Good choice of music Rob...have a trot over to the album club thread, looks like Radiohead are about as popular as a fart in a space suit round here ;)

How about some bantam mono blocks, they'd be well within your budget :)

[Ali Tait]

Aye that's a thought, the monoblocks should be a good match.

[dionisio]

Good choice of music Rob...have a trot over to the album club thread, looks like Radiohead are about as popular as a fart in a space suit round here ;)

How about some bantam mono blocks, they'd be well within your budget :)

Thanks for the suggestion!

Yeah, Radiohead do seem to polarise opinion... after one listen of the new album I momentarily hated them too, but further listens have rewarded.

[WAD62]

Thanks for the suggestion!

Yeah, Radiohead do seem to polarise opinion... after one listen of the new album I momentarily hated them too, but further listens have rewarded.

Likewise Rob...it does take some persistence, I nearly picked 'Cosmogramma' but thought that might be pushing things too far ;)

[dionisio]

Also keen to hear about any amazing integrated valve jobbies that could do the business for around that price.

One box might be better for my health, if you know what I mean...

[Ali Tait]

This can be bought built-

http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/info_WD88VA.html

[Ali Tait]

..and would come in at the lower end of your budget.

[Neil McCauley]

Trio LO7-M monoblocks. I used mine with my NS1000 and NS1000M and then NS2000s for some years. Never heard a more musically credible power amp to drive these still magnificent Yamahas.

Bullet-proof construction. Usually between £450 and £575 on eBay depending on condition.

LO8-M units not quite as good!

Regards

Howard


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[dionisio]

Thanks for the recommendation, definitely food for thought - I'll keep my eyes open, not in any great rush.


Trio LO7-M monoblocks. I used mine with my NS1000 and NS1000M and then NS2000s for some years. Never heard a more musically credible power amp to drive these still magnificent Yamahas.

Bullet-proof construction. Usually between £450 and £575 on eBay depending on condition.

LO8-M units not quite as good!

Regards

Howard


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[SPS]

I used ns1000's quite a few years ago (and still have a pair at my lads), mostly with 60 -100w solid state amps, went through a few £600- £1200 solid state amps in the late 90's.
my first valve amp was a modified vintage german single ended valve (el84) amp of about 4 watts,
the solid state stuff never got played again, the bass was not much different, but the overall sound was much clearer. just not quite enough volume, the next valve amp was still single ended about 9 watts.. that was plenty loud enough
there are 'not so good valve amps' too...

[Mika K]

At the time I used my NS-1000M's with Electrocompaniet integrated, ARC classic 60 poweramp and then with Naim 202/NAPSC/HC2/200 combo. All had their virtues.

However my friend has NS-1000X's and those really rock with some Krell A-class powerhouse KSA-100S. And smaller Krell model KSA-50 is also working very well. Ages ago he also tested MC275's as mono and those were shockingly wonderful combination with the Yams, had little bit more of everything than with the single stereo version. Perhaps the best combination I have heard..

[DSJR]

Hot and cold memories of mine.. They're certainly capable of showing up an ill-matched amp as you hear all the "synthetic" colourations and "deadening" in the upper midrange that these speakers so easily exhibit - oh yes they do - and can if you get it wrong.......

My own advice would probably be for a beefy powerhouse to drive them. I don't know the Trio/Kenwood amps, but I suspect Howard is quite correct regarding these :) I suspect the Quad 606/707/909 series would be great and fairly plentiful (I'm not mentioning the sort-of sleeping 520F..).

Do please remember that these were MONITORS which crossed over to the upper domestic market back in 1975 or so and designed to show many/most deficiencies in the programme source...

[Ali Tait]

They certainly do that.

[DSJR]

They certainly do that.


Well, we both seem to come at things from opposing directions, but as long as we all meet in the middle at the end of the road, that's the important thing IMO... :) :peace:

[Ali Tait]

Do we? I wasn't aware we disagreed on many things Dave.:)

Having said that, I think the above characteristics are why they can sound so good with some valve amps.

[Mika K]

That is true as with wrong amplification the bass department cannot match at all to the fast and revealing nature of the Be-drivers. Also the mid-highs are not so easy to get sound "right" as with several transistor amps there is unwanted harshness present.

My friend has been thinking of experimenting with bi-amping - Krell A-class monster to drive the bass and MC275 to the mid-highs and that indeed might be the ticket.. ;)

[DSJR]

But then you'd have to butcher them as they're not bi-wired IIRC.....

For a fairly cheap new powerhouse, I have heard good reports of the HK990 amp, which sells here for well under a grand. Of course, I'd love to recommend Glenn Croft's integrated and pre/hybrid-power amps too, as these should give the "freedom" up top and the "punch" low down the NS1000's often seem to need..

[Mika K]

Original xo's can be found from Ebay etc with quite fair pricing for experiments.

Also are you aware of this updated xo by Troels Gravesen with some interesting measurement data? This is imho the way to go as the group delays between the elements grow but for someone it might do the trick..

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Yamaha-NS1000.htm

[StanleyB]

I have used a couple of Croft amps on the NS1000M when doing audio testing on my DACs. They seem to work well together.

[Reid Malenfant]

As has already been mentioned, a decent quality push-pull valve amp, be it class AB or A, or a proper class A solid state amp like a Krell is best ;)

These things take no prisoners, all will be revealed including any nasties from the front end or the amp itself :eyebrows:

I bought 3 pairs just for the drivers :cool:

[Ali Tait]

I had a night at Mike Homar's place, and took along a few amps. We tried MF A370, Audioromy 813 and original WAD 300b PP stereo chassis. The WAD was far and away the best. Mike subsequently bought the WAD from me.

[Reid Malenfant]

Indeed, it's why the yanks bought NS1000m's by the truck load - they were mostly using big valve amps ;) Here (about the same time period) we used bextrene bass units & soft domes & crappy class B solid state...

Recipe for disaster when replaced by NS1000m as they'd show the amp for what it was really doing which was glossed over by the soft domes etc :lol:

[StanleyB]

My take on the NS1000M is that it needs an amp with a very good damping factor.

[Ali Tait]

Indeed, it's why the yanks bought NS1000m's by the truck load - they were mostly using big valve amps ;) Here (about the same time period) we used bextrene bass units & soft domes & crappy class B solid state...

Recipe for disaster when replaced by NS1000m as they'd show the amp for what it was really doing which was glossed over by the soft domes etc :lol:

Aye, I remember a mate buying a pair new and using them with a Technics stack system. The treble would take your fillings out!

[Reid Malenfant]

In theory it shouldn't as the closed box Q is less than 0.5 which is critically damped. But they aren't the easiest load in the world with pretty wild swings & a peak of well over 70 ohms at about 40Hz along with about 4.25 ohms above & below this, so yes, i agree in that respect to...

Which is why i mentioned a genuine class A solid state amp like a Krell (or similar) which will not only satisfy the low crossover distortion needed to stop them sounding fizzy but control the bottom end well to. ;)

[Reid Malenfant]

Aye, I remember a mate buying a pair new and using them with a Technics stack system. The treble would take your fillings out!
:eek: I think i could imagine it :eyebrows:

[dionisio]

Cheers guys, appreciate all the suggestions - very useful info.

[Ali Tait]

Never heard one, but a few folk here have one and like them, may be a good match with the Yammies-

http://www.xtz.se/uk/products/electronics/class-a100-d3-black/silver

[Ali Tait]

There is a power amp version too.

[dionisio]

Quick question: if I was to go down the power beast route, would I be in danger of blowing those lovely tweeters if I used, say, an amp that put out 200w at 8ohm?

The Yamahas are rated at 100w / 8.

[Ammonite Audio]

You are far more likely to blow drive units' coils with an underpowered amp that clips easily, than with a higher powered one with extra wattage that you'll probably not use anyway.

[DSJR]

I think the NS1000's can easily deal with a 250WPC biggie...

If you want vintage and use a good valve preamp, the Crown DC300A is available for around a couple of hundred quid, with only styling making the main differences between versions. Incredible damping, the ability to easily drive an electric drill (:lol:), a sound limited more by the way it was used in the 70's than anything else and a reliable product that retains its specs after thirty years of abuse and it's bridgeable too :hotrod:

[Reid Malenfant]

As others have mentioned the yamaha drivers will easily cope with more power than is specified as long as it's clean power :)

I know for a fact that the bass drivers will happily cope with over 300W RMS as quite often i see that amount of power being fed to them (active system). The midrange units having the same type of edgewound rectangular copper voice coil should be similar & handle similar power.

The tweeters are the weak point, but it's generally clipped amplifiers that blow tweeters due to the DC & extreme HF power this clipped waveform generates.

Mine appear happy with a 130W RMS amplifier driving them to very loud levels regularly & for prolonged periods (after a few pints) :eyebrows:

They still both work fine. You'll be better off with as big an amplifier as possible if you intend to do very loud listening.

[StanleyB]

I have never dared trying out mine with anything more than 100W/8Ohms. Replacement tweeters and midrange drivers cost a fortune when you do find them.

[Reid Malenfant]

What you need to remember Stan is that the bass & midrange driver use 8cm voicecoils & these will handle way over 200W RMS even if they were made the same as normal coils - but they're not..

The copper is rectangular & is wound to build up a stack, there is no former as the whole thing is glue together which results in it being able to radiate heat better as it'll be closer to the pole piece & top plate with no former.

The same goes for the tweeter but it's 3cm diameter. No former, just rectangular copper wire wound & glued together. Yamaha were well ahead of the time in doing these things.


You must remember i'm driving my drivers with their own power amps. I think i'd still be happy driving a standard pair of NS1000 with a 300W RMS per channel amp (8 ohms) but i'd be a bit more wary of inductor saturation in the crossovers.

[dionisio]

Going back to the damping factor thing...

Would 100 (at 8 ohm, 50hz) be considered sufficient? What sort of number's a high damping factor?

Or is it more like wattage, where the numbers don't really tell the whole story?

(Learning all the time here - thanks everyone, it's such a helpful forum in comparison to some of the others...)

[Reid Malenfant]

A damping factor of 100 with an 8 ohm load at 50Hz should be ok imo. What it means is at 50Hz the output impedance of the amplifier is 8/100 or 0.08 ohms.

As the bass drivers resonance is at approximately 44Hz in the enclosure (if i remember right) the impedance of the driver will be pretty high indeed. Also as the driver has such a low Qts this impedance peak is spread quite wide. It wouldn't be out of the question for the impedance of the driver to peak at well over 50 ohms, it'd still likely be over 30 ohms at 50Hz.

Thus the amplifier will have even more control over the speaker than the damping factor would suggest as 30/8 = 3.75 & 0.08/3.75 = 0.021 ohms with a 30 ohm load or if you like a damping factor of 375 with 30 ohm load ;)

[dionisio]

Thanks :)

Thinking I might go for a Parasound Halo A21 at the moment - the specs look, to me, to be ideal and reports tally with it being a great amp.

Jerry has good things to say about it, I believe, also?

Specs from the manufacturer:


Continuous power output:
250 watts RMS x 2, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 8 Ω, all channels driven
400 watts RMS x 2, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 4 Ω, all channels driven
750 watts RMS x 1, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 8 Ω

Current capacity:
60 amperes peak per channel

Power bandwidth:
5 Hz - 100 kHz, +0/-3 dB at 1 watt

Total harmonic distortion:
< 0.2 % at full power

IM distortion: balanced 16 V rms
< 0.04 %

Slew rate:
> 130 V/µsecond

Dynamic headroom:
> 1.5 dB

Interchannel crosstalk:
> 80 dB at 1 kHz;
> 63 dB at 20 kHz

Input sensitivity:
1 V for 28.28 V, THX Reference Level

Input impedance:
33 k Ω unbalanced; 66 k Ω balanced

S/N ratio:
112 dB, input shorted, IHF A-weighted

Damping factor:
> 1100 at 20 Hz

[Reid Malenfant]

See if you can get an audition ;) You might be interested to know that i'm using a Parasound amplifier (HCA1206) to feed the drivers in my 4 way active system. I'm utilising the drivers from an NS1000M along with a 7" audax driver. The amp (which is 6 channel) is directly feeding the Yamaha mid & treble drivers & there is no problem with it being over bright or any sign of nasties from crossover distortion :)

Knowing it to be designed by John Curl & the same with the power amp you are considering i'd guess & say it should partner the NS1000 very well indeed :cool: Still get a listen if possible though..