Hi-Fi Choice mag to vanish?

[prestonchipfryer]

“...a fascinating vox pop!

Here we are online, enjoying the amazing interactivity the medium has to offer, all saying we prefer the printed word!”

Wot he wrote :)

“IMO the format and even the concept has to change to make it more instant, which is modern communication. It should be a page or two of instant information update daily or at least weekly, pictures and reviews, with updatable blog type content from readers. With archive of all product reviews and easy referenced search. The concept of a monthly magazine does not translate to online. The idea of just using so called expert reviewers should change, there is no greater expert than a long term user.

So the concept needs to be a forum concept more than a magazine concept with review and tech discussion sections. The world of the forum and the magazine need to combine and it is the magazine publishers who need to do most of the changes, they are stuck in a mind set and into revenue streams that no longer apply. On-line is different.”

And wot he wrote :)

As for the notion that the printed word is somehow sacred and must be preserved; well depends wots bin writ dunnit (?)

Of course I can understand those who like to browse a well written and informative journal in comfort and keep it as a possible reference for a later date, thing is, most of the current publications are neither well written, or informative; would 60% advertising and a few pictures of systems that are irrelevant to the average income audiophile seem a reasonable description?
It's a bit like collecting porn mags. Far better getting a bloody great big screen and watching it from the comfort of your sofa with a remote in your hand; well one hand anyway ;)

No-one doubts on-line publishing is the future. It is - in my humble opinion - just more involving reading from a book, magazine and other printed journals. Screens, you can keep 'em. Innit. :lolsign:

[Marco]

I think a lot depends on whether your Internet leisure activity is sneakily undertaken during working hours in the office (naughty, naughty :eyebrows:), or in relaxed conditions, in your own time, under your own roof.

For those who fall mainly into the former category, I can see how on-line magazines would be more useful, or even, preferable.

However, for folk like me, who come 100% under the latter category, chilling out and lying back on the sofa reading a paper copy of the same magazine, whilst being immersed in some nice sounds, will always be a damn sight more enjoyable! :cool:

Marco.

P.S One thing I love about collecting, and referring back to old hi-fi magazines, is looking at the adverts.....

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Hi Richard,

I agree with you completely - but I think you misunderstand me when I say 'magazine' - I use it in the sense of a collection/compendium of articles, rather than a physical object made of paper pages.

Hi-Fi World magazine will be just as much a magazine online as it is a magazine on paper - in the sense that it's a 'storehouse' of information (I think that's the etymological origin of term, possibly from Arabic IIRC?).

You're right to say it will have to make the most of the medium, inasmuch as it won't be a simple monthly update - it will much more interactive and multimedia than that, and updated daily of course... I don't think Future Publishing's idea of just dumping Hi-Fi Choice content on TechRadar and forgetting about it was exactly making best use of the medium...

There's a good way to go before we transition to this, but I for one won't be sad to miss crushing monthly deadlines, needed to reach our short timeslot booked on those huge printing presses... GK Chesterton once said "journalism is literature in a hurry", and he was right about the latter bit! I will miss those magazines, though.

You will have a lot of disillusion and loss of credibility as an industry vehicle to somehow make up for. Or will it just be same old same old as this new Malcolm Steward on-line effort looks like. Someone needs to look at the fitness for purpose question that it seems all the paper / print publishers suffer from, not just the highly obvious News Corp example.

You only have to look at what is written in forums to realise that your (all hi-fi magazines) reviewing credibility has reached rock bottom, the cat is out the bag re the commercial bias. So what else do you have to offer apart from that, as forums convey the opinions of users and owners which are collecting far more credibility. So apart from pages of advertising and some well posed picture what else do you offer over and above what we have here.

[Lodgesound]

I think it would be true to say that HiFi magazines became the "Top Gear" in terms of buying recommendations. The equipment under review was always astronomically expensive and simply could not be even reasonably aspired to by ordinary individuals with families and "real life" salaries. It had almost reached the point of being obscene.

I used to read them just for information really but honestly when I got to the prices I used to just laugh - most of the equipment was in no way worth any where near this kind of ridiculous money and as for the reviews they were for the most part badly written diatribes consisting of largely meaningless waffle reflecting on aspects of recorded sound which quite simply do not exist.

In short as Richard has already alluded to they meant nothing except when taken from a truly current flavoured commercial perspective.

Honesty and real-life experience - we have that by the bucketful on forums and in HiFi terms most notably on The Art Of Sound.

Publishers - online or physical - please take due note.

[David Price]

Hi Richard,

I think HFW will be very different from Malcolm's vehicle, but I wouldn't want to go into specifics for obvious reasons.

I have to say that I think from your various posts you seem to think the medium is the message (a la Marshall McLuhan). I disagree. I think you can have good and bad print, and good and bad online. I don't think the medium through which the content is delivered necessarily determines the content - although you're right to say that yes, traditionally it has to an extent. Doesn't mean it always will, though...

I'd say it's a rather sweeping and summary judgement from you to say the credibility of all magazines has reached rock bottom. We have 12 or so pages of letters every month in HFW -and we get enough to fill about 30 or more pages every month. Obviously these readers don't think we have no credibility, or they wouldn't bother writing in. I think some mags have less cred than others, and within mags I think some writers have less cred than others. But I think it's a tad reductive to assert that they're all the same, and/or that online forums are somehow immune from bias.

In Hi-Fi World we have products that one reviewer will give 3/5 and another 5/5 - this comes down to personal taste and this is the final arbiter, along with basic measured performance. It scares me how personal taste can be so divergent, and so we always say use our reviews as a start point for your buying journey - we don't have a hubristic "we tell you the best hi-fi to buy" stance, which is plain dumb IMO.

I don't think you should see mag content as competition for 'what we have here'. What we have here on AOS is a number of industry insiders and/or fans, plus a some 'normal' civilians, chewing the cud, often about the politics of the industry. In hi-fi land most people I meet are just interested in getting a better sound and have a fairly straightforward approach to the mags - they like some, don't like others so much - and don't take any interest in the politics. I think you make the mistake of confusing your ultra-in-the-know position with that of most casual buyers; they simply don't have the scepticism that you have about the mags - misplaced or not.

To be honest, I am not so worried about the world thinking that hi-fi mags are biased. I am far more troubled by people thinking hi-fi mags are irrelevant - because hi-fi is irrelevant. We as an industry need to stop bickering amongst ourselves and ask why young people aren't buying hi-fi any more? Why can't hi-fi mags, hi-fi dealers and hi-fi manufacturers sell to these people? That's the clincher - not whatever Ken Kessler (or whoever) thinks some speaker or another and his motives for so doing...

[sq225917]

Kids don't buy 'hifi' be cause it doesn't fit in with their rapidly changing, mobile, low cost, lifestyles. 'Hifi' has always been an investment, physical hardware rooted in a room in a house somewhere. That's not what kids want. The success of sites like Headfi and retailers like Headrooms should show you that even towards the lower age group of the current audiophile market there is a large segment of the population that want personal music replay systems that fit in with their mobile lifestyle.

Until todays kids put down roots and buy houses they won't be interested in 'hifi' in its current state. There's plenty of money being spent on music replay systems but it's all idocks and headphone dac/amps and wank overpriced headphones.

The current 20-35 age group has largely been lost to the joys of quality, home music playback. Their needs weren't addressed you treated them like the pipe and slippers brigade 20 years their elders. There was nothing driving progress in the UK hifi market, just old men selling kit that hadn't changed in 25 years playing the same albums they were playing 25 years ago. If you want to attract the younger generation to a hifi show, get the Fleet Foxes to play not bloody McEvoy.

The horse has firmly bolted. Maybe there's just time for every hifi shop to get up to speed with PC audio and get their crap together, but I doubt it. Retailers are targeting a declining market and know nothing about what's required to make enjoying music in the home appear cool. It's a branding exercise that is required, Radio 1 understand it. In new music they trust...

If you want to make a successful online hifi publication that attracts new customers from the bottom age slice then it needs to be part NME, part Spotify, part your favourite hifi magazine and part Facebook. We'll read any old shit you print, the youth market is far more discerning.

[prestonchipfryer]

wank overpriced headphones.


Are these hands-free devices? :lolsign:

[Theo]

Kids don't buy 'hifi' be cause it doesn't fit in with their rapidly changing, mobile, low cost, lifestyles. 'Hifi' has always been an investment, physical hardware rooted in a room in a house somewhere. That's not what kids want. The success of sites like Headfi and retailers like Headrooms should show you that even towards the lower age group of the current audiophile market there is a large segment of the population that want personal music replay systems that fit in with their mobile lifestyle.

Until todays kids put down roots and buy houses they won't be interested in 'hifi' in its current state. There's plenty of money being spent on music replay systems but it's all idocks and headphone dac/amps and wank overpriced headphones.

The current 20-35 age group has largely been lost to the joys of quality, home music playback. Their needs weren't addressed you treated them like the pipe and slippers brigade 20 years their elders. There was nothing driving progress in the UK hifi market, just old men selling kit that hadn't changed in 25 years playing the same albums they were playing 25 years ago. If you want to attract the younger generation to a hifi show, get the Fleet Foxes to play not bloody McEvoy.

The horse has firmly bolted. Maybe there's just time for every hifi shop to get up to speed with PC audio and get their crap together, but I doubt it. Retailers are targeting a declining market and know nothing about what's required to make enjoying music in the home appear cool. It's a branding exercise that is required, Radio 1 understand it. In new music they trust...

If you want to make a successful online hifi publication that attracts new customers from the bottom age slice then it needs to be part NME, part Spotify, part your favourite hifi magazine and part Facebook. We'll read any old shit you print, the youth market is far more discerning.

Good points - pretty much agree with all of that.

Some established companies are trying to adapt & survive - witness B&W with the Zeppelin. SQ not hugely important (it's sounds ok, no more), but aesthetics are great, and appreciated by the 20-35 year group (I know of many who aspire to one the same way people used to aspire to B&O). Somebody out there will design a fabulous looking (v important) one-box streamer/HDD/PC/DAC with active speakers at a price deemed acceptable, and clean up. At the moment, for those who want something better than an iDock. a Mac/DAC/active speakers is all they need - and sounds a damn sight better than the crappy rack systems that Joe Public bought in the 70s/80s. How the industry reacts to this in future is very important.

[David Price]

I'm not really talking about 'kids' - I was thinking more the 18-30 age group. They used to buy hi-fi, and now appear not to want to. My fears are that [a] the retailers have done nothing to bring them in to their shops [b] the manufacturers have done little to appeal to them and [c] there's no upgrade ladder any more - where do you go after a Zeppelin?

In the olden days we had cassette, which was a wonderful universal currency - you could bring a 25 year old and his Walkman into a store, then demonstrate how much better a 'real' cassette deck was, and then a Nakamichi to aspire to. There was a ladder, a way up into real hi-fi. Now there's little of this. Hopefully network music players will begin to fill this gaping hole, but it could be too little too late as we've lost a generation of young people.

[Welder]

David Price wrote;

“To be honest, I am not so worried about the world thinking that hi-fi mags are biased. I am far more troubled by people thinking hi-fi mags are irrelevant - because hi-fi is irrelevant. We as an industry need to stop bickering amongst ourselves and ask why young people aren't buying hi-fi any more? Why can't hi-fi mags, hi-fi dealers and hi-fi manufacturers sell to these people? That's the clincher - not whatever Ken Kessler (or whoever) thinks some speaker or another and his motives for so doing...”

I rather think you’ve got the answer to your questions in there somewhere David combined with your reference to a very successful product line, HRT.
Add to the above products like the Nuforce Dac/Headphone Amplifier, Temple Audio Bantam series, an “i” thingy or similar to serve music files and the picture seems reasonably clear to me.

I don’t believe there has been this enormous reduction in interest by the “young” in quality audio.

I’m listening to a Nuforce Icon through Sennheiser HD 595’s as I type and even given poor aural memory I can tell you the quality of sound is far better than my first Vinyl set up and a fraction of the cost.

Part of the industries problem is how to persuade those interested in audio that the small percentage increase in sound quality, where it does actually exist, between a £30000 system and a say a £1000 system is worth paying for.

The industry is a bit stuffed when a low income teen/early twenties prospective audiophile enters a store and gets presented with a range of overpriced pretty boxes, gets played some expensive system and then pulls out an mp3 player and an Icon for example and says to the sales person, “Oh yes, I can hear a difference but I cant carry that lot about with me, I cant afford it anyway and to be honest it doesn’t actually sound that much better.” ;)

The Hi Fi press has been waxing lyrical bullshit about over priced luxury products for years. Interestingly, when you read the reviews carefully, they seem often not to be able to say outright, this product is better than that and that is about where the honesty stops.
So, honest, intelligently written reviews of products relevant to the group you’re trying to sell to would seem a good point to start. I believe you sales people say “know your market” and the vast majority of you obviously don’t have clue.

I went to audition a fairly expensive amplifier (£4000 roughly) at a dealers not so long ago. It’s difficult to describe the look I got when I produced my music server, and a flash drive for source, my HRT Pro for comparison and shock horror, my own music to listen to.
Frankly, the salesperson just didn’t have clue about file based audio, couldn’t wire the product to my kit and much to my amusement couldn’t differentiate between a 320 FBR mp3 and a WAV file.

So, perhaps another tip, at least try to keep abreast of the new technology and don’t dismiss it out of hand because it doesn’t fit your definition of Hi Fi.


Cheeky to be telling the great and the good of the Hi Fi industry how to sell; perhaps, but apparently, even according to the great and the good, they ain’t hacking it.
Finally two general points particularly relevant on a subjectivist’s forum and the content of this thread.
What exactly is the point of the “in depth” equipment review?
What the reviewer hears in his/her system bears absolutely no relevance to what that component will sound like in your system should you buy it and that’s with the generous assumption that the reviewer actually listen to it.
Finally, I asked my daughter (early twenties, music lover, instrument player, low budget audio enthusiast) to read this thread.

I cant print her comments for fear of offending the participants but it went something like “boring old farts who should get a life”
Combat that one and you may have all your Hi Fi Industry concerns cracked.
Yep, not only is the established audiophile media irrelevant in the modern world, it seems we’re boring the pants of everyone as well.

[sq225917]

David, by 'kids' I simply mean anyone who typically doesn't have their own kids, so the 18-30 would cover a large slice of that demographic.

I've rubbed enough shoulders at early evening alcohol free gigs at local clubs that have been filled to the roof with teens and in some cases even pre-teens who are simply dying to see their next big indie-yoof thing. In fact i've barely seen a more vocal and appreciative crowd than at the first Kate Nash gig I attended, and most of them were under 18. The Mrs and I were by far the oldest people there. They are voracious consumers of music and future owners of music replay systems- in whatever form that system may be.

There's some hope, products like the I-decco bridge the gap. Even staid brands like Naim have taken the big step forward of making all in one products like the Unitiqute it's just a shame their marketing doesn't put them in front of the young potential future purchasers of these products.

They should pull their marketing dept heads out of their arses and spend the money they waste on Bentley elsewhere. Maybe promoting a series of youth focused gigs instead. They could do an annual youth music awards for less than 100k and probably make money back off TV rights and advertising if they were that way inclined. There's no annual awards for live gigs, they could own that space and be indelibly linked with recreating the live music experience at home. What they do for marketing now just shows a complete lack of creativity and more worryingly zero foresight.

[DSJR]

I LOVE it - naim being called "staid" :D

Julian Vereker would turn in his grave - apologies to Naim fans, but what they need to do is the Unitiqte for £300 - £400...

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I LOVE it - naim being called "staid" :D

Julian Vereker would turn in his grave - apologies to Naim fans, but what they need to do is the Unitiqte for £300 - £400...

No hope, they don't scratch their collective arses for under £500 :rolleyes:

[David Price]

Hi DSJR - trouble is, Naim can't do a UnitiQute for £300, because they make their own stuff in the UK...

But I know what you mean - maybe they should start a sub-brand, made in China but tweaked here and better than most of the competition, aimed at twentysomethings...?

This is my point - we need more twentysomething specialist audio.

Actually, we are seeing a bit more of this sort of thing - the HRT stuff, Arcam rDAC, Musical Fidelity V DAC etc. The market is beginning to move in the right direction but it should have been doing this 6-7 years ago. Hate to say I told them so at the time, but I did!

We produced a sister mini magazine to Hi-Fi World (called Computer Audio World) in 1999-2000 and were greeted with utter bemusement by the hi-fi establishment. We auditioned soundcards, reviewed MP3 portables compared MP3 codecs, tested CD-R burners, tried music editing and recording software. The great and the good of the UK hi-fi industry thought we were totally mad, although we got positive comments from many readers and manufacturers in the far east, interestingly.

I do hope UK hi-fi PLC gets with the plan and pushes hard with affordable entry level computer audio kit, but then again I was hoping the same thing in 2001. It's been a long wait and we're not there yet...

[sq225917]

David, it'll never happen. Too many old men living off past glories.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Well personally I see no difference between the magazines, they are all stuck in the same mindset and the same motivations, to attract advertising, and the only purpose of the readership is to provide the hook to attract that advertising. The whole concept has had its time. In fact the whole basis of the old industry that revolves around the holy trinity of the relationship between manufacturers / distributors - retailers - magazines / reviewers has had its day. The only motivation being profit and the only person left out of the equation is the end user, the customer, the enthusiast which is why they are largely sticking two collective fingers up at the lot of you now, yes there are still people stuck in the groove but they will get less and less until before you know it you are talking to yourselves. It is the relative youth that are leading the way, because you haven't managed to get them into the brainwash as you were too busy over the last 20 years with the baby boomers and their growing property equity and how much you could get of it.

The only growth hi-fi market is second hand, because that is the only way you can get any sensible choice at a sensible price.

The new industry will be on line, direct sold, and at sensible prices. And new people will mostly do it as they are not stuck in the old mindset.

[sq225917]

I'm not so sure we can predict what the new industry will be. Without marketing hifi to the new class of customer there will be no industry, not in the sense of new purchasers of hifi, just us old farts moving from old media to new media consumption and communication.

The entire industry needs to rethink how it approaches its potential customer base, the method of communication, printed or online media is neither hear or there, it's how they approach this new class of customer to make them aware of quality music reproduction in the home or on the move, that counts. They have to communicate quality, enjoyment, social interaction. The magazines will never do this for them as it removes them from the 'trinity' the industry needs to do it for itself.

The process of selling won't change. Low prices online are simply a product of low quality, low wages, cheap imports, or bedroom business's that aren't exposed to the same costs of doing business and scale of R&D investment that large traditional brands are. There's little to be saved by dumping your distributors, you just have to shoulder the warranty burden and stock amortization yourself for every country you sell in. A business is a business is a business, if it's not then it's a hobby.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Can't do it without distributors, can't be a home or one of two man business, can't only sell on line - all can't can't can't. All stuck in same old mindset.

You will be saying next that you can't do those things in the 2nd hand market, which is the only growth area in our business. Well the way you say "it can't be done" IS the 2nd hand industry, so why is it in growth. Because customers can't get what they want at sensible prices buying it new, and often they get better sounding product 2nd hand.

People seem to love to diss ebay, but they have been the salvation for most users / hobbyists, especially those on forums. As long as the major manufacturers continue to take themselves off the radar as they are out of the price capacity of most users due to continual yearly price increases. To point it has just become a piss take, then the more that 2nd hand market will continue to grow. And the other associated thing that will grow will be the after market bodgers and tweakers, who from their ranks will come the new industry, as the mainstream trilogy can't survive. They will just eventually run out of sheep to fleece.

[Werner Berghofer]

Simon,


old men selling kit that hadn't changed in 25 years playing the same albums they were playing 25 years ago

excellent point – and change these “25 years” to 35 years or more. Everytime I read or hear about the xth re-release of a re-re-re-mastered edition of Pink Floyd’s “Dark side of the moon” or yet another “Best of Led Zeppelin” I have to grin diabolically and shake my head. For me this is a perfect example of the whole HiFi industry’s situation.

Werner.

[Marco]

Lol - indeed! :eyebrows: :rolleyes:

Marco.

[Alan Sircom]

OK, so while you were collectively bemoaning (or celebrating) the death of the hi-fi industry for yet another weekend, a few of us were out doing something about it.

A few of us (Loud & Clear, Classic Album Sundays a few DJs and musos, myself and a few guys from Grahams) and a system made up of Bowers & Wilkins (the sponsor), Rega, dCS, Naim, Chord, ISOL-8 and Quadraspire, took the balcony room at the top of the Royal Festival Hall during this year's Vintage festival. This became the Classic Album Lounge. We deliberately didn't shout about this in the audio press and the forums because this wasn't for the Usual Suspects. This was to play the Best of British Albums on the Best of British Hi-Fi, as part of the 60th anniversary of the Festival Of Britain celebrations.

Under the Classic Albums Sundays banner, I introduced the concept, and the fact that Britain is not yet completely lost as a manufacturing nation then in most cases handed over to a DJ or musician to introduce the Classic album from the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s or 1980s. We then played the complete album, from beginning to end, asking people to respect the music by not chatting, not texting or using their phones, etc, etc. We played some albums on LP, some on CD and even played one on 24-bit FLAC file-based replay.

For the record (pun slightly intended), the Classic Albums Sundays concept was born out of a blog written by DJ Greg Wilson – who introduced over the three day period all three Beatles albums that were voted for as the Classic Albums of the 1960s – and taken up by fellow DJ Colleen 'Cosmo' Murphy – who was running similar sessions at Bestival. Classic Albums Sundays is a reaction to our current 'shuffle' culture and asks of the listener to Respect the Record. Many classic albums are designed to be listened to as a complete entity, are best listened to at volume, as a shared event and with full attention, rather than as a chopped up in-ear background soundtrack to you posting on your Facebook wall.

The net result is over the three days, we played a dozen classic albums to about 1,000 people over the weekend, of which perhaps less than 20 were existing hi-fi enthusiasts. And we played them these albums on about £130,000 worth of British Hi-Fi equipment. Many of these people were young enough never to have heard these albums as albums, and many only equated recorded music to an iPhone or Blackberry-related experience. This was a showcase, not a selling exercise, but I had discussions with people after the event about replicating the same experience on a smaller scale in the home. They went away awe-struck by the albums and equally awe-struck by the sound that was produced. We had tears, dancing, a whole air band and a lot of headbanging to Stairway To Heaven. We also probably inspired almost 100 people to repaint their bedrooms black after listening to Closer by Joy Division at full tilt.

Will events like this bring new people to the hi-fi party? Who knows, but I can pretty much guarantee that it's more likely to have a positive influence than doing sod all. Those who got involved pretty much had the least to gain from this; Londoners often think everything outside of London is either a holiday destination or a wasteland, and so all the hard work of Andy, John and Gem from Loud & Clear in Edinburgh and Glasgow will probably directly net them not a lot of new business. And I'm reasonably sure Rega won't gain much business from me describing the company as being "a couple of saveloys away from Southend Pier" or the Chord Company as being "a druid's throw from Stonehenge", but hopefully some of these things stick in the minds of people, who went from "do they still make hi-fi?" to "how can I get that at home?" inside of an hour.

-

The industry (at least, the industry that is likely to survive) is actively rethinking how to reach new customers. Events like Vintage (and Cosmo's Classic Album Sundays sessions at Bestival and Bowers & Wilkins taking a Society of Sound tent at Womad this weekend) show exactly that. Hi-fi brands getting involved in SilentArena is another aspect of reaching people that no-one on a hi-fi forum ever mentions because it doesn't feature on their radar screens. The difficulty is so many hi-fi buffs are so locked into their own old ways of thinking that they aren't aware of hi-fi brands that are already trying new ways of approaching people.

In some respects, the biggest obstacle in marketing hi-fi to a new generation is keeping the old generation out of the mix. There's nothing quite so much of a turn-off to a twentysomething than a set-in-his-ways fiftysomething telling them - unprompted - how to do things the proper (i.e., their) way. Which is perhaps why this all happens under your collective radars.

[Spectral Morn]

Sounds like a great idea and well done for being involved.

I have always found it sad that so many in the industry want their own mini kingdoms, rather than pulling together and helping to promote the quality reproduction of music, there is strength in numbers.


Regards D S D L

[Alex_UK]

Sounds like a great idea and well done for being involved.

+1

Is there such a thing as National Hi-Fi Week where everyone gets involved to promote it? There seems to be a "National Everything Else Week" so why not hi-fi?

[Spectral Morn]

+1

Is there such a thing as National Hi-Fi Week where everyone gets involved to promote it? There seems to be a "National Everything Else Week" so why not hi-fi?

Another great idea but I suspect the 'mini kingdoms' mentality will get in the way.


Regards D S D L

[Alan Sircom]

+1

Is there such a thing as National Hi-Fi Week where everyone gets involved to promote it? There seems to be a "National Everything Else Week" so why not hi-fi?

Now that's an excellent idea. Do you mind if I steal it? I'll keep it safe and put it to good use, and will owe you several drinks.

[DSJR]

It's a few years since I saw for myself, but the likes of Richer Sounds seem to be doing OK country-wide, many of their shops used to be thriving where the audio-salon down the road would be empty.. For not much, you can get a quite presentable system from Richer Sounds - little Cambridge Audio CD player and amp with some far-eastern made but I'm sure OK speakers that won't take your fillings out..

Of course, a half decent I-pod dock and some little active speakers (or not so little Behringers which offer so much for under £300 I think) would be ideal and sound pretty good too methinks???????

Get 'em on the ladder and you never know, they might like better once the kids have grown up and the student-loan has been repaid - oh yeah, the mortgage too - which brings us back to 50 somethings with some disposable income - cough -

[Spectral Morn]

There is room in this for all but it is the young who need to be fired with a passion for music and quality reproduction of it, whatever the method. It is only with capturing the imagination of the young that quality specialist audio has any future.



Regards D S D L

[Marco]

Hi Alan,


A few of us (Loud & Clear, Classic Album Sundays a few DJs and musos, myself and a few guys from Grahams) and a system made up of Bowers & Wilkins (the sponsor), Rega, dCS, Naim, Chord, ISOL-8 and Quadraspire, took the balcony room at the top of the Royal Festival Hall during this year's Vintage festival. This became the Classic Album Lounge. We deliberately didn't shout about this in the audio press and the forums because this wasn't for the Usual Suspects. This was to play the Best of British Albums on the Best of British Hi-Fi, as part of the 60th anniversary of the Festival Of Britain celebrations.


Brilliant stuff! I applaud the effort you guys have made with that, and may there be many more events like it in future :cool:


Londoners often think everything outside of London is either a holiday destination or a wasteland...


...and the irony is, much of London is far more of a "wasteland" (if you value fresh air, natural scenery and being miles from the 'rat race'), than many beautiful parts of the rest of the UK! ;)

Honestly, though, the mentality you describe is totally ignorant and idiotic, and in itself, partly to do with the problems the industry is facing! :rolleyes:


The difficulty is so many hi-fi buffs are so locked into their own old ways of thinking that they aren't aware of hi-fi brands that are already trying new ways of approaching people.


I think you're absolutely right, and applaud the innovative and forward thinking of the hi-fi brands you mention. However, the trouble is, a lot of us here are "locked into our own old ways of thinking" simply because our ears tell us that's what produces the best results.

The sad fact is that, in many cases, quality vintage hi-fi outperforms its modern counterparts, which is why people like me have a system largely consisting of carefully selected vintage gear and bespoke modern valve amps from specialist manufacturers.

I would dearly LOVE it if when I listen to hi-end modern kit (and trust me, I've been exposed to plenty of it in my time), or computer audio, it sonically outperformed my old Sony transport and DAC and old Tannoys, etc, but to my ears and those of many others, most of it patently doesn't. Therefore, why should I downgrade my system, simply to support the sales of modern equipment?

When, for example, I hear a £40,000 CDP at a hi-fi show and think to myself 'Jeez, that sounds pish compared to what I have at home', it doesn't exactly inspire me to abandon my way of system-building and embrace the current 'hi-end', or modern technology....

If standards are improved, and here I'm talking solely about out-and-out sound quality, as ultimately that's ALL that matters to me, and manufacturers stopped making 'badge-fi', to appeal to those with more money than sense, and spent more on the stuff 'under the hood' than what's on the outside to make equipment look pretty, then the attitude of people like me might change ;)

Marco.

[Alan Sircom]

I think you're absolutely right, and applaud the innovative and forward thinking of the hi-fi brands you mention. However, the trouble is, a lot of us here are "locked into our own old ways of thinking" simply because our ears tell us that's what produces the best results.

The sad fact is that, in many cases, quality vintage hi-fi outperforms its modern counterparts, which is why people like me have a system largely consisting of carefully selected vintage gear and bespoke modern valve amps from specialist manufacturers.

I would dearly LOVE it if when I listen to hi-end modern kit (and trust me, I've been exposed to plenty of it in my time), it sonically outperformed my old Sony transport and DAC and old Tannoys, etc, but to my ears and those of many others, most of it patently doesn't. Therefore, why should I downgrade my system, simply to support the sales of modern equipment?

When, for example, I hear a £40,000 CDP at a hi-fi show and think to myself 'Jeez, that sounds pish compared to what I have at home', it doesn't exactly inspire me to abandon my way of system-building and embrace the current 'hi-end', or modern technology....

If standards are improved, and here I'm talking solely about out-and-out sound quality, as ultimately that's ALL that matters to me, and manufacturers stopped making 'badge-fi', to appeal to those with more money than sense, and spent more on the stuff 'under the hood' than what's on the outside to make equipment look pretty, then the attitude of people like me might change ;)

Marco.

While I don't disagree with a lot of this, that is rather a broad brush you are using to sweep away much of the last 30 years of audio. Audio does hit plateaus, especially when faced with time, money and resources directed away from the subject into more immediately lucrative projects (like home cinema in the 1990s). However, there are periodic 'leap forward' products that do make an overall benefit to the pantheon of audio components. And no, not all of them are expensive; the HRT Streamer II+ (especially the new one) does things to file-based audio that you'd struggle to match anywhere in hi-fi. The little CEntrance USB headphone DAC is another such device. And at the other end, the Devialet D-Premier still represents an improvement over what went before for many people (valve lovers tend not to agree).

Vintage aside (the name of the event kind of sets the tone), a lot of people today equate all technology with the disposable culture of today. To some, audio's obsession with old technology is indicative of just how out of step we are with the modern world. To suggest a 1980s Sony transport and DAC (no matter how good it is in reality) is as good as or even better than current technology is met with the sort of derision you might get from saying a Model T Ford is faster and safer than a new Mondeo. To the people we are trying to reach, a CD is an 'antique' and LP is a 'relic'.

That said, there is a strong retro/counter-culture movement in the young that buys LPs, plays them on equipment from the 1970s and enjoys the whole experience that brings. However, the driving force behind the movement is as much basking in the 1970s retro-chic of the equipment than it is a drive toward intrinsically better sound. Some of these systems sound great, some sound truly awful, but that doesn't matter it seems.

So it's not about you downgrading your system, it's about you not clouding the waters for people about to dip their toe in.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

There seems to me to be lot of clutching at straws going on.

It is all very simple. The equation is direct costs + overheads + profit. When the result of that equation drives your customers away then you have no industry. Answer = get rid of it, overheads need to be cut, profit need to be sensible and not just feeding directors pension pots, direct costs are always direct costs.

The answer to all this is on-line.

[SCIDB]

Hi Alan,

Well done! It is good to see people in the industry trying to do something. TBH the Hi-FI industry has to take some of the blame for its demise.

I must admit I almost went to the Vintage Festival this year as last years festival looked fun. There will a number of young and not so young people there but there will be a number of "new to hifi" people.

The ideal of tagging in with the Classic Album Sundays crew was a good one. This sort of thing can be done in many places. It is a way that can get people in touch with good sound quality and musical enjoyment.

The equipment choice will be good "eye candy" to many people.

Interesting choice of music used. Who was in charge of making the choices?

Here is the list

Friday
Lonnie Donegan 'The Lonnie Donegan Showcase' Presented by Pete Donegan
The Beatles 'The Revolver' Presented by Dean Rudland
David Bowie 'The Rise & Fall of Ziggy Stardust & the Spiders from Mars' Presented by Greg Wilson
The Smiths 'The Queen is Dead' Presented by Danielle Goldstein

Saturday
Billy Fury 'The Sound of Fury' Presented by Sean Rowley
The Beatles 'Sgt Peppers Lonely Heart Club Band' Presented by Greg Wilson
Pink Floyd 'The Dark Side of The Moon' Presented by Alan Sircom
Joy Divison 'Closer' Presented by Mark Moore

Sunday
Tommy Steele 'The Tommy steel Story' presented by Jay Strongman
The Beatles 'Abbey Road' presented by Greg Wilson
Led Zepplin 'Led Zepplin IV' presented by Andy Smith
Kate Bush 'Hounds of Love' presented by Ben Murphy

[Alan Sircom]

I wondered how long it would take for the market maven to get back on message. Well done, Richard. You have managed to see the negative in something positive.

[Marco]

Hi Alan,

Good reply - I'll get to it later after lunch! :cool:

Marco.

[Alan Sircom]

Hi Alan,

Well done! It is good to see people in the industry trying to do something. TBH the Hi-FI industry has to take some of the blame for its demise.

I must admit I almost went to the Vintage Festival this year as last years festival looked fun. There will a number of young and not so young people there but there will be a number of "new to hifi" people.

The ideal of tagging in with the Classic Album Sundays crew was a good one. This sort of thing can be done in many places. It is a way that can get people in touch with good sound quality and musical enjoyment.

The equipment choice will be good "eye candy" to many people.

Interesting choice of music used. Who was in charge of making the choices?

Here is the list

Friday
Lonnie Donegan 'The Lonnie Donegan Showcase' Presented by Pete Donegan
The Beatles 'The Revolver' Presented by Dean Rudland
David Bowie 'The Rise & Fall of Ziggy Stardust & the Spiders from Mars' Presented by Greg Wilson
The Smiths 'The Queen is Dead' Presented by Danielle Goldstein

Saturday
Billy Fury 'The Sound of Fury' Presented by Sean Rowley
The Beatles 'Sgt Peppers Lonely Heart Club Band' Presented by Greg Wilson
Pink Floyd 'The Dark Side of The Moon' Presented by Alan Sircom
Joy Divison 'Closer' Presented by Mark Moore

Sunday
Tommy Steele 'The Tommy steel Story' presented by Jay Strongman
The Beatles 'Abbey Road' presented by Greg Wilson
Led Zepplin 'Led Zepplin IV' presented by Andy Smith
Kate Bush 'Hounds of Love' presented by Ben Murphy

Colleen posted a list of albums on her Facebook page and put it to the vote. This was tempered slightly by having to find people who could talk about the album before it was played. It was also tempered by the Britishness of the whole exploit, which imposed quite significant limits on the choice of 1950s albums.

[SCIDB]

Colleen posted a list of albums on her Facebook page and put it to the vote. This was tempered slightly by having to find people who could talk about the album before it was played. It was also tempered by the Britishness of the whole exploit, which imposed quite significant limits on the choice of 1950s albums.

Hi Alan,

Not a bad choice of albums. I agree the 50's album are harder to choose.

[Alan]

What a lot of work must have gone into that - well done all!

I must say as a 30 yrs old HiFi-nerd (with an HRT MS 2 in the second system - Ha!) that Alan's point about 'oldies' lecturing the 'whippersnappers' has a certain resonance....as does the collective narcissism that most of us are guilty of at times, particularly those of us who post on forums! You know, the idea that our kit is capable of something profound and this bespeaks some wonderful ability on our part. I know I never mean to sound like that, and I assume others dont either, but thats how it reads! The conclusion Alan ventured, that is to keep the established audiophiles away from the green shoots is a good one Imo.

As distatsteful as it seems, the generation below mine is the ultimate consumer generation (until the next one matures) so let the market respond. Commercialism is the way to attract new blood so lets not knock it. The way the industry works might well have to change too, but what Alan and co were addressing is a more fundamental issue. Ultimately if the bug bites we will see young audiophiles exploring individual systems to suit them and ignoring the prevailing marketing.

I hope we see more events of this kind, and that the experience of listening to a full album on a top flight system speaks to the newbies deeply.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I wondered how long it would take for the market maven to get back on message. Well done, Richard. You have managed to see the negative in something positive.

What makes you think I am talking about your event. Did I link it in my post?

I think your event was obviously good for the people who attended, and all events involving music are good. But an answer to the demise of magazines (the thread subject) I think not. That is linked to the overall demise of the industry which is what my posts are directed to.

We are enthusiast in an enthusiasts industry, as are the old music crowd you hi-jacked to help try and find another sticking plaster to put on the industry. It is a lot more fundamental than that, and yes I am being negative, because only by pointing to the problems do you create a solution, not by ignoring it and blaming everyone else.

You are trying to maintain the status quo because you are a vested interest, and it is in your interest to try to maintain it. I on the other hand have no vested interest in it, in fact the opposite as I am part of the new industry and doing very well thank you, at a relative gnats bite of the big companies. BUT I used to try and be like them and I make more personal income now from it than I did then and yet my prices are half what they were. I am using this as examples so please no crap about self promotion or spamming. Also *I Do* what I think is right, the same as I write about it, would it be logical to be any other way.

[Alan Sircom]

What makes you think I am talking about your event. Did I link it in my post?

I think your event was obviously good for the people who attended, and all events involving music are good. But an answer to the demise of magazines (the thread subject) I think not. That is linked to the overall demise of the industry which is what my posts are directed to.

We are enthusiast in an enthusiasts industry, as are the old music crowd you hi-jacked to help try and find another sticking plaster to put on the industry. It is a lot more fundamental than that, and yes I am being negative, because only by pointing to the problems do you create a solution, not by ignoring it and blaming everyone else.

You are trying to maintain the status quo because you are a vested interest, and it is in your interest to try to maintain it. I on the other hand have no vested interest in it, in fact the opposite as I am part of the new industry and doing very well thank you, at a relative gnats bite of the big companies. BUT I used to try and be like them and I make more personal income now from it than I did then and yet my prices are half what they were. I am using this as examples so please no crap about self promotion or spamming. Also *I Do* what I think is right, the same as I write about it, would it be logical to be any other way.

I think you misunderstand. The purpose of this event wasn't for the good of the individual companies attending. It's possibly hard to imagine this if you consider everyone base, but this was closer to virtue ethics or at most enlightened self-interest rather than an expression of greed. It may be that there were people in the room were so bowled over by the sound of £46,000 worth of dCS Scarlatti that they run to their nearest dealer, or it maybe that the whole event generates hardly any sales for the brands on show. Direct sales are just not the point of the exercise.

The ultimate purpose of this and other exploits is to try and plant the seeds for new enthusiasts, rather than just watch the old ones grow old disgracefully. And that counts for magazines just as much as it does for manufacturers.

And yes, the industry is not innocent in helping itself into the state it is in currently. It's not solely responsible for its current condition, but neither did it help itself. And in many respects, it isn't largely helping itself today. However, retreating to a point of near-invisibility isn't the only answer. Neither is applying your own prescription to the world entire.

There are two ways of dealing with what's past; endless recrimination, or moving on. If you want to keep raking over how bad everyone treated you in the 1980s, that's fine. Let it define the rest of your life if you want. As you say, you have to do what you think is right.

It's just not my right.

[griffo104]

OK, so while you were collectively bemoaning (or celebrating) the death of the hi-fi industry for yet another weekend, a few of us were out doing something about it.

A few of us (Loud & Clear, Classic Album Sundays a few DJs and musos, myself and a few guys from Grahams) and a system made up of Bowers & Wilkins (the sponsor), Rega, dCS, Naim, Chord, ISOL-8 and Quadraspire, took the balcony room at the top of the Royal Festival Hall during this year's Vintage festival. This became the Classic Album Lounge. We deliberately didn't shout about this in the audio press and the forums because this wasn't for the Usual Suspects. This was to play the Best of British Albums on the Best of British Hi-Fi, as part of the 60th anniversary of the Festival Of Britain celebrations.

Under the Classic Albums Sundays banner, I introduced the concept, and the fact that Britain is not yet completely lost as a manufacturing nation then in most cases handed over to a DJ or musician to introduce the Classic album from the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s or 1980s. We then played the complete album, from beginning to end, asking people to respect the music by not chatting, not texting or using their phones, etc, etc. We played some albums on LP, some on CD and even played one on 24-bit FLAC file-based replay.

For the record (pun slightly intended), the Classic Albums Sundays concept was born out of a blog written by DJ Greg Wilson – who introduced over the three day period all three Beatles albums that were voted for as the Classic Albums of the 1960s – and taken up by fellow DJ Colleen 'Cosmo' Murphy – who was running similar sessions at Bestival. Classic Albums Sundays is a reaction to our current 'shuffle' culture and asks of the listener to Respect the Record. Many classic albums are designed to be listened to as a complete entity, are best listened to at volume, as a shared event and with full attention, rather than as a chopped up in-ear background soundtrack to you posting on your Facebook wall.

The net result is over the three days, we played a dozen classic albums to about 1,000 people over the weekend, of which perhaps less than 20 were existing hi-fi enthusiasts. And we played them these albums on about £130,000 worth of British Hi-Fi equipment. Many of these people were young enough never to have heard these albums as albums, and many only equated recorded music to an iPhone or Blackberry-related experience. This was a showcase, not a selling exercise, but I had discussions with people after the event about replicating the same experience on a smaller scale in the home. They went away awe-struck by the albums and equally awe-struck by the sound that was produced. We had tears, dancing, a whole air band and a lot of headbanging to Stairway To Heaven. We also probably inspired almost 100 people to repaint their bedrooms black after listening to Closer by Joy Division at full tilt.

Will events like this bring new people to the hi-fi party? Who knows, but I can pretty much guarantee that it's more likely to have a positive influence than doing sod all. Those who got involved pretty much had the least to gain from this; Londoners often think everything outside of London is either a holiday destination or a wasteland, and so all the hard work of Andy, John and Gem from Loud & Clear in Edinburgh and Glasgow will probably directly net them not a lot of new business. And I'm reasonably sure Rega won't gain much business from me describing the company as being "a couple of saveloys away from Southend Pier" or the Chord Company as being "a druid's throw from Stonehenge", but hopefully some of these things stick in the minds of people, who went from "do they still make hi-fi?" to "how can I get that at home?" inside of an hour.

-

The industry (at least, the industry that is likely to survive) is actively rethinking how to reach new customers. Events like Vintage (and Cosmo's Classic Album Sundays sessions at Bestival and Bowers & Wilkins taking a Society of Sound tent at Womad this weekend) show exactly that. Hi-fi brands getting involved in SilentArena is another aspect of reaching people that no-one on a hi-fi forum ever mentions because it doesn't feature on their radar screens. The difficulty is so many hi-fi buffs are so locked into their own old ways of thinking that they aren't aware of hi-fi brands that are already trying new ways of approaching people.

In some respects, the biggest obstacle in marketing hi-fi to a new generation is keeping the old generation out of the mix. There's nothing quite so much of a turn-off to a twentysomething than a set-in-his-ways fiftysomething telling them - unprompted - how to do things the proper (i.e., their) way. Which is perhaps why this all happens under your collective radars.

While I admire this approach I still think it's wrong.

Playing vintage albums on £130k worth of kit is like telling a bunch of guys to sit by the side of the M25 while you drive around in a Veyron.

If you want to get youngsters in to hifi and appreciate what it can do you need to play MODERN music on affordable kit to show the benefits of saving their pennies and investing in something that actually brings the music they love closer.

Ok I may be the extreme here but a hifi show and the only tough album is Closer. why does everything in hifi need to be vintage or classic ? I'm not keen on vintage gear (sorry Marco) and I HATE the Beatles, I stopped by Mojo as I get fed up of reading about them every other month (and Bob Dylan the other's).

To bring young blood in and show what's great about music and hifi try and actually play something from this year or something out of the norm that actually appeals to people.

My other half's kids are 20 and 1 and music is always on, a gang of 8 of them spent £180 to go to Sonosphere the other month, so they will pay money and they love it. None of them own a hifi or want to beacuse they think it's for old fogeys playing old fogey music and sadly this even simply shows that to me.

Music has moved on, the kit has moved on - and so has the ability to listen and have access to a wider range of music. Listening to The Beatles on stupidly priced hifi is not the way to get them involved.

Out of those 1000 people how many would go off and buy a hifi and what would the average cost be ? If I would be amazed it it's not less than 10%.

Show people what THEIR music sounds like on affordable gear that has access to modern methods of music access and you may just save hifi from computer brigade. Somehow though I doubt it very much.

I had my other half's nephew (who is 13) listening to Rancid on vinyl through an active Linn system with it cranked up and he loved it. show him The Beatles and he doesn't want to listen to it because his Grandad likes them.

Oh and I live a saveloy from Southend Pier and have a great respect for companies like Rega who do actually make affordable systems.

As for Gear like the Naim, its out of the price range so doesn't come in to it. Tell them what this does that their Playstation doesn't do, and they can watch TV, surf the internet, watch blu-rays, get Qriocity and Vidzone, listen to CDs and play games on it. Oh and it costs £245. Hook this up to cheap budget quality amp from the Likes of Marantz or Denon with some decent speakers from the likes of Wharfdale and THEN you get the yougsters taking an interest.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I think you misunderstand. The purpose of this event wasn't for the good of the individual companies attending. It's possibly hard to imagine this if you consider everyone base, but this was closer to virtue ethics or at most enlightened self-interest rather than an expression of greed. It may be that there were people in the room were so bowled over by the sound of £46,000 worth of dCS Scarlatti that they run to their nearest dealer, or it maybe that the whole event generates hardly any sales for the brands on show. Direct sales are just not the point of the exercise.

The ultimate purpose of this and other exploits is to try and plant the seeds for new enthusiasts, rather than just watch the old ones grow old disgracefully. And that counts for magazines just as much as it does for manufacturers.

And yes, the industry is not innocent in helping itself into the state it is in currently. It's not solely responsible for its current condition, but neither did it help itself. And in many respects, nether is it helping itself today. However, retreating to a point of near-invisibility isn't the answer, either. Neither is applying your own prescription to the world entire.

There are two ways of dealing with what's past; endless recrimination, or moving on. If you want to keep raking over how bad everyone treated you in the 1980s, that's fine. Let it define the rest of your life if you want. As you say, you have to do what you think is right.

It's just not my right.

Here we go again - this is not about me, and has *nothing* to do with the way I was treated or not. People try to twist things to meet their own agendas or to try and change *my* motive so I can be more easily dismissed. I was not treated badly as I have said so many times I am sick of it. The *whole* industry was treated badly apart from / and by a few selected companies and their sycophants and minions that were part of the brainwash.

I repeat, I admire your event and I understand the motives, so again don't attribute things to me I have not said. *YOU* linked it to the industry and motivating younger customers. If that happens then very good, if some sales come out of it then very good. BUT how many under 30's can aspire to £100k systems, well less than half the number who could aspire to a £50k system which is what it should cost without all the hangers on and trough munchers who want a cut. Even then when you consider most young people are paying out a relative fortune on rents while they try and save a deposit for a house, then the people in this market are just some City types, that is the level we have dropped to. Maybe 5% of the population being *able financially* to be able to participate. 20 to 30 years ago it would have been nearly half the population.

That is the problem you need to address.

[Alan Sircom]

What a lot of work must have gone into that - well done all!

I must say as a 30 yrs old HiFi-nerd (with an HRT MS 2 in the second system - Ha!) that Alan's point about 'oldies' lecturing the 'whippersnappers' has a certain resonance....as does the collective narcissism that most of us are guilty of at times, particularly those of us who post on forums! You know, the idea that our kit is capable of something profound and this bespeaks some wonderful ability on our part. I know I never mean to sound like that, and I assume others dont either, but thats how it reads! The conclusion Alan ventured, that is to keep the established audiophiles away from the green shoots is a good one Imo.

As distatsteful as it seems, the generation below mine is the ultimate consumer generation (until the next one matures) so let the market respond. Commercialism is the way to attract new blood so lets not knock it. The way the industry works might well have to change too, but what Alan and co were addressing is a more fundamental issue. Ultimately if the bug bites we will see young audiophiles exploring individual systems to suit them and ignoring the prevailing marketing.

I hope we see more events of this kind, and that the experience of listening to a full album on a top flight system speaks to the newbies deeply.

Thanks, but the whole album thing is not just for the newbies. It's quite shocking how much we all distract ourselves from 'just listening', even while we are listening.

Greg Wilson noticed this first when playing gigs. A really good DJ set - especially one from a 'name' - ends up with a dancefloor full of people hardly moving, facing the DJ and recording the event. It's no longer being there, but "Look, I was there!", and they cease to be active participants in the process, but instead passive equipment stands for a smartphone.

Attention spans are shrinking massively (and blame for that one really cannot be laid at the feet of the hi-fi industry). Despite telling people to respect the record, there was still a contingent of people txting their friends, telling them how great it was to listen to an album - they weren't listening, they were txting! I've noticed that when I listen to an album (assuming I'm not reviewing), the distractions creeping in.

The active listening experience, especially as a shared experience, is a lot more intense than even we give it credit these days. The Syd Barrett Madcap Laughs event at the Idea Generation Gallery in Shoreditch at the end of March was a real eye-opener for me; not just because the LP was played on hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of equipment, or because it was the first time in years I'd seen a hundred people (some born in the 1980s or even 1990s) listening to a record, but because of the intensity of the experience.

It's nothing new. In fact, it's something quite old. But it's something all of us have lost to a lesser or greater extent. And it's a tale worth retelling time and again. Try it.

[lurcher]

I guess it depends if those listening were told it was a £100k system, or if they were just told "this is whats possible". if the former then I agree it won't generate much interest, but if the latter, then I dont see the problem. If it was about what is possible, then whats wrong with using as good a set of kit as you can get, I can't see that doing any harm, and if it lets folk know what they could have at home, then it can only be good.

[lurcher]

I also think the shared listening thing is a very important point. In my youth, we listened to music as a group, talked about music as a group and when new folk came along, we added them to the group by playing them the music that we felt (with hindsignt) defined us as a group. To a large extent I have stopped doing that over time. The closest I get to that now is either a gig or a hifi get together either small or the larger DIY ones we have. The shared thing was very noticible at the last DIY one as most folk were in the bar and five or so of us sat through a side of Live Dead. I guess if most of your music is consumed via headphones, then the group thing will never happen.

[worthingpagan]

While I admire this approach I still think it's wrong.

Playing vintage albums on £130k worth of kit is like telling a bunch of guys to sit by the side of the M25 while you drive around in a Veyron.

If you want to get youngsters in to hifi and appreciate what it can do you need to play MODERN music on affordable kit to show the benefits of saving their pennies and investing in something that actually brings the music they love closer.

Ok I may be the extreme here but a hifi show and the only tough album is Closer. why does everything in hifi need to be vintage or classic ? I'm not keen on vintage gear (sorry Marco) and I HATE the Beatles, I stopped by Mojo as I get fed up of reading about them every other month (and Bob Dylan the other's).

To bring young blood in and show what's great about music and hifi try and actually play something from this year or something out of the norm that actually appeals to people.

My other half's kids are 20 and 1 and music is always on, a gang of 8 of them spent £180 to go to Sonosphere the other month, so they will pay money and they love it. None of them own a hifi or want to beacuse they think it's for old fogeys playing old fogey music and sadly this even simply shows that to me.

Music has moved on, the kit has moved on - and so has the ability to listen and have access to a wider range of music. Listening to The Beatles on stupidly priced hifi is not the way to get them involved.

Out of those 1000 people how many would go off and buy a hifi and what would the average cost be ? If I would be amazed it it's not less than 10%.

Show people what THEIR music sounds like on affordable gear that has access to modern methods of music access and you may just save hifi from computer brigade. Somehow though I doubt it very much.

I had my other half's nephew (who is 13) listening to Rancid on vinyl through an active Linn system with it cranked up and he loved it. show him The Beatles and he doesn't want to listen to it because his Grandad likes them.

Oh and I live a saveloy from Southend Pier and have a great respect for companies like Rega who do actually make affordable systems.

As for Gear like the Naim, its out of the price range so doesn't come in to it. Tell them what this does that their Playstation doesn't do, and they can watch TV, surf the internet, watch blu-rays, get Qriocity and Vidzone, listen to CDs and play games on it. Oh and it costs £245. Hook this up to cheap budget quality amp from the Likes of Marantz or Denon with some decent speakers from the likes of Wharfdale and THEN you get the yougsters taking an interest.

+1

[Alan Sircom]

While I admire this approach I still think it's wrong.

Playing vintage albums on £130k worth of kit is like telling a bunch of guys to sit by the side of the M25 while you drive around in a Veyron.

If you want to get youngsters in to hifi and appreciate what it can do you need to play MODERN music on affordable kit to show the benefits of saving their pennies and investing in something that actually brings the music they love closer.

Ok I may be the extreme here but a hifi show and the only tough album is Closer. why does everything in hifi need to be vintage or classic ? I'm not keen on vintage gear (sorry Marco) and I HATE the Beatles, I stopped by Mojo as I get fed up of reading about them every other month (and Bob Dylan the other's).

To bring young blood in and show what's great about music and hifi try and actually play something from this year or something out of the norm that actually appeals to people.

My other half's kids are 20 and 1 and music is always on, a gang of 8 of them spent £180 to go to Sonosphere the other month, so they will pay money and they love it. None of them own a hifi or want to beacuse they think it's for old fogeys playing old fogey music and sadly this even simply shows that to me.

Music has moved on, the kit has moved on - and so has the ability to listen and have access to a wider range of music. Listening to The Beatles on stupidly priced hifi is not the way to get them involved.

Out of those 1000 people how many would go off and buy a hifi and what would the average cost be ? If I would be amazed it it's not less than 10%.

Show people what THEIR music sounds like on affordable gear that has access to modern methods of music access and you may just save hifi from computer brigade. Somehow though I doubt it very much.

I had my other half's nephew (who is 13) listening to Rancid on vinyl through an active Linn system with it cranked up and he loved it. show him The Beatles and he doesn't want to listen to it because his Grandad likes them.

Oh and I live a saveloy from Southend Pier and have a great respect for companies like Rega who do actually make affordable systems.

As for Gear like the Naim, its out of the price range so doesn't come in to it. Tell them what this does that their Playstation doesn't do, and they can watch TV, surf the internet, watch blu-rays, get Qriocity and Vidzone, listen to CDs and play games on it. Oh and it costs £245. Hook this up to cheap budget quality amp from the Likes of Marantz or Denon with some decent speakers from the likes of Wharfdale and THEN you get the yougsters taking an interest.

I think you aren't quite getting what we were doing here. We were at the Vintage festival at the Royal Festival Hall, as part of the 60th anniversary of the Festival of Britain. That imposes some very strict limits upon what could or could not be played at the event. It had to be British. It had to be between the 1950s and 1980s. And Cosmo put everything to the vote.

We had four Classic Album sessions per day; one from the 1950s, one from the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Given that we had someone in full D-Day US paratrooper regalia and his forces sweetheart listening to Billy Fury and neither of them was a day over 20, we were not in the sort of place where Two Door Cinema Club or Everything Everything was likely to be heard.

As I said, this was The Best of British, played on The Best of British. So that meant no Marantz, no Denon, no Wharfedale anymore. And no Playstations or Qriocity. We just about got away with playing files off a laptop, because it was handmaiden to something British. It was also a room that could seat close to 100 people, so even a pair of 800 Diamonds played at ear-splitting volume at the front was talk-over quiet at the back.

Besides, most people think that the UK stopped making things in the 1980s, why not disabuse them of this with something truly deluxe? We had a chance to show off the best of British. Why should that be so wrong?

[griffo104]

Simon,



excellent point – and change these “25 years” to 35 years or more. Everytime I read or hear about the xth re-release of a re-re-re-mastered edition of Pink Floyd’s “Dark side of the moon” or yet another “Best of Led Zeppelin” I have to grin diabolically and shake my head. For me this is a perfect example of the whole HiFi industry’s situation.

Werner.

Exactly stuck in a rut trying to appeal to the same old people. things need to change.

[Lodgesound]

I have to say I completely agree with you re. price, aspiration and affordability.

It matters not how good some of these high end esoteric systems sound - the prices are just completely unrealistic in today's economy. As you say how are younger folk even supposed to start to begin to aspire to such machinery when a vast majority of them are earning a mid twenties salary if they are lucky, paying off a student debt of at least 25 grand and having to spend 75-80% of their income on either a rent or mortgage.

The only way for many folk now is the second hand market by virtue of price alone.

Why do manufacturers repeatedly ignore what is so obviously happening. People's disposable income is exponentially diminishing in this country. It is high time manufacturers begin to make the relevant adjustments to their prices if they wish to generate any kind of volume sales.

[griffo104]

I think you aren't quite getting what we were doing here. We were at the Vintage festival at the Royal Festival Hall, as part of the 60th anniversary of the Festival of Britain. That imposes some very strict limits upon what could or could not be played at the event. It had to be British. It had to be between the 1950s and 1980s. And Cosmo put everything to the vote.

We had four Classic Album sessions per day; one from the 1950s, one from the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Given that we had someone in full D-Day US paratrooper regalia and his forces sweetheart listening to Billy Fury and neither of them was a day over 20, we were not in the sort of place where Two Door Cinema Club or Everything Everything was likely to be heard.

As I said, this was The Best of British, played on The Best of British. So that meant no Marantz, no Denon, no Wharfedale anymore. And no Playstations or Qriocity. We just about got away with playing files off a laptop, because it was handmaiden to something British. It was also a room that could seat close to 100 people, so even a pair of 800 Diamonds played at ear-splitting volume at the front was talk-over quiet at the back.

Besides, most people think that the UK stopped making things in the 1980s, why not disabuse them of this with something truly deluxe? We had a chance to show off the best of British. Why should that be so wrong?

Sorry I did misunderstand waht the point of the vent was - I thought it was trying get people to appreciate hifi and music - my apologies.

I own two systems - one that is very British - Michell and Linn, and one that doesn't have a single UK bit of kit in it - Denon, Audio Analogue and Totem. The sad thing about it is the 2nd system cost me uder £1k to put to gether to get a very nice sound.

How many UK manufacturers can you do this with nowadays ? What is being made in Britain is now sadly overpriced and just as good quality and sound is avaialble cheaper and with more variety.

As for best of British, with those brands, are all their components locally sourced ? I was under the impression that some of B&W's cabinets used to be made off shore and not in the UK and the drives Naim used were not manufactured here either, just modified.

So when we talk about manufacture are we talking 100% or just putting other peoples bits in British made boxes ?

[Alan Sircom]

I guess it depends if those listening were told it was a £100k system, or if they were just told "this is whats possible". if the former then I agree it won't generate much interest, but if the latter, then I dont see the problem. If it was about what is possible, then whats wrong with using as good a set of kit as you can get, I can't see that doing any harm, and if it lets folk know what they could have at home, then it can only be good.

That was exactly the point. It wasn't to say "you can only hear it on a £100k system", it was to say "this is what can be done". People were more wowed by the sound than by the price. When I said it cost as much as it did, they didn't laugh; they asked how close to that they could get for £xxx or £xxxx, and what all the bits were.

I deliberately didn't mention the cost of the system until after they'd heard it, after they'd cheered and applauded the album (after the Joy Division album, I didn't even mention the system cost... anything said after that much full on bleakness would seem trite. People asked, then asked how much they could do for less, but it was too intense a musical experience to talk hard cash).

[Alan Sircom]

Sorry I did misunderstand waht the point of the vent was - I thought it was trying get people to appreciate hifi and music - my apologies.

I own two systems - one that is very British - Michell and Linn, and one that doesn't have a single UK bit of kit in it - Denon, Audio Analogue and Totem. The sad thing about it is the 2nd system cost me uder £1k to put to gether to get a very nice sound.

How many UK manufacturers can you do this with nowadays ? What is being made in Britain is now sadly overpriced and just as good quality and sound is avaialble cheaper and with more variety.

As for best of British, with those brands, are all their components locally sourced ? I was under the impression that some of B&W's cabinets used to be made off shore and not in the UK and the drives Naim used were not manufactured here either, just modified.

So when we talk about manufacture are we talking 100% or just putting other peoples bits in British made boxes ?

No product could be 100% British or 100% German or whatever these days. The transport mech from dCS is sourced from Japan, many of the components are sourced from around the world and so on. But the Bowers and Wilkins 800 Series are wholly made in Worthing. Either that or they flew in a huge bending machine for those cabinets just for show.

I'm not sure if British products are overpriced. You invariably pay more because of increased labour costs of building in the UK. You also tend to pay more if you don't build it by the tens of thousands, and the extraordinarily skewed cost of buying components here. I know an American brand that has ended up buying components through China because they are cheaper than they can get from the manufacturer, even though the manufacturer is based in the same city as the brand!

And yes, if you don't establish an export trade, you don't get to set your prices as a function of export. You didn't need to do that in the days when the UK hi-fi market was buoyant. But now that a year's worth of UK hi-fi sales is equivalent to about a month's worth of sales to Chile, or a busy weekend in Bejing, prices get set accordingly. The last thing anyone wants to do is find their home market prices are 30% lower than export, because the export trade finds out and then goes mad. They demand you raise the prices in the home market... or else.

[Lodgesound]

I understand the intensity - emotive and powerful music played over a good system can be very moving - but honestly why the "not able to talk hard cash" business?

I have met with this before at shows - I asked the price of a system once and the person demonstrating it actually said to me "well if one has to ask the price then one can't afford it".

I found that utterly condescending - I really don't know who the person concerned thought they were but this was by no means an isolated attitude in more than one show I have attended.

In my experience you really do not know who is standing in front of you.

[Marco]

I'm not keen on vintage gear (sorry Marco)...

Nothing to apologise for, dude, although it is somewhat of a sweeping statement... Perhaps it would've been better to have said: 'I'm not keen on the vintage gear I've heard or experienced so far'? :)

At some point (perhaps after a visit chez-moi?) you may hear some vintage kit which will change your opinion.....

And let's not forget that almost all the vintage gear I own has been judiciously upgraded with modern internal components, which in my experience, is often the way of getting the best of both worlds and achieving sonic nirvana with the highest sound-per-pound value (which will always be the main focus of AoS)! ;)

Alan, I'll get to your earlier post later - just got to pop out for a bit :cool:

Marco.

[Alan Sircom]

Here we go again - this is not about me, and has *nothing* to do with the way I was treated or not. People try to twist things to meet their own agendas or to try and change *my* motive so I can be more easily dismissed. I was not treated badly as I have said so many times I am sick of it. The *whole* industry was treated badly apart from / and by a few selected companies and their sycophants and minions that were part of the brainwash.

I repeat, I admire your event and I understand the motives, so again don't attribute things to me I have not said. *YOU* linked it to the industry and motivating younger customers. If that happens then very good, if some sales come out of it then very good. BUT how many under 30's can aspire to £100k systems, well less than half the number who could aspire to a £50k system which is what it should cost without all the hangers on and trough munchers who want a cut. Even then when you consider most young people are paying out a relative fortune on rents while they try and save a deposit for a house, then the people in this market are just some City types, that is the level we have dropped to. Maybe 5% of the population being *able financially* to be able to participate. 20 to 30 years ago it would have been nearly half the population.

That is the problem you need to address.

OK, sorry. You are sick of it. Some of us aren't. I can understand why some of us who aren't sick of it come round here to explain their position. If you are sick of it all, why are you still here?

You talk about hangers on and trough munchers... I didn't see you giving up your weekend to talk to prospective newcomers about music and making it sound better. Who knows, perhaps you stand to benefit from this, because someone might have been wholly switched on by the event, went looking for good sounds and ended up on eBay in your store.

How many people under 30 can aspire to a £100k system? About as many as can aspire to a £100k Ferrari, or a £10k quilted-flame PRS 10-top guitar. And how many people under 30 will end up peering through the window of that Ferrari dealers or the guitar shop and think "if only..."? And how many of those "if onlys" end up buying a six year old Alfa coupé or a £500 PRS SE? The point of all this isn't to turn people into £100k hi-fi buyers, it's to make them re-learn to want to aspire to become a £100k hi-fi buyer, and then to buy something more down to earth.

[Alan Sircom]

I understand the intensity - emotive and powerful music played over a good system can be very moving - but honestly why the "not able to talk hard cash" business?

I have met with this before at shows - I asked the price of a system once and the person demonstrating it actually said to me "well if one has to ask the price then one can't afford it".

I found that utterly condescending - I really don't know who the person concerned thought they were but this was by no means an isolated attitude in more than one show I have attended.

In my experience you really do not know who is standing in front of you.

You mistake why I said what I said. It had nothing to do with the 'if you have to ask...' mentality. It was because too many people were moved by the music to discuss anything apart from Joy Division. Myself included. The only thing I said afterward was something like this:

"Look, I really don't know what to say after that, because it would just be trite. We were going to play more music, but everything sounds so contrived now. Er... thanks for coming."

And then we played more Joy Division.

Every other session ended with a few questions. This one ended with a lot of sighing and shaking.

[Lodgesound]

Hi Alan;

My misunderstanding - apologies for that...

[Audioman]

Sorry I did misunderstand waht the point of the vent was - I thought it was trying get people to appreciate hifi and music - my apologies.

I own two systems - one that is very British - Michell and Linn, and one that doesn't have a single UK bit of kit in it - Denon, Audio Analogue and Totem. The sad thing about it is the 2nd system cost me uder £1k to put to gether to get a very nice sound.

How many UK manufacturers can you do this with nowadays ? What is being made in Britain is now sadly overpriced and just as good quality and sound is avaialble cheaper and with more variety.

As for best of British, with those brands, are all their components locally sourced ? I was under the impression that some of B&W's cabinets used to be made off shore and not in the UK and the drives Naim used were not manufactured here either, just modified.

So when we talk about manufacture are we talking 100% or just putting other peoples bits in British made boxes ?

It is almost impossible today to say any product is 100% made in a given country. Globalisation means that production of certain parts from a given manufacturer are concentrated in one place. A British product is one designed and assembled in the UK with a substantial input of UK sourced companents. Even in the days of 100% British made speakers the wood veneers had to be imported. Chinese made electronics of any quality generaly rely on electronic components from Japan, USA and elsewhere. The chinese made iphone uses components made and designed around the world including UK. Realisticaly designed and assembled with some UK components is enough.


That was exactly the point. It wasn't to say "you can only hear it on a £100k system", it was to say "this is what can be done". People were more wowed by the sound than by the price. When I said it cost as much as it did, they didn't laugh; they asked how close to that they could get for £xxx or £xxxx, and what all the bits were.

I deliberately didn't mention the cost of the system until after they'd heard it, after they'd cheered and applauded the album (after the Joy Division album, I didn't even mention the system cost... anything said after that much full on bleakness would seem trite. People asked, then asked how much they could do for less, but it was too intense a musical experience to talk hard cash).

Joy division is modern to me anyway. If you are doing a dem in a big room you need a big system so that makes sense. Alan this is a great idea but it is a pity that the classic album thing is so London centric so far. I think it would be a good idea to get the interested manufacturers to repeat this at some of the Home entertainment / lifestyle shows or even large record fairs around the country. It then could extend to more recent music though much of the 'popular' stuff suffers from production values that may grate through a high end set up.

Going back to the Magazine theme I must congratulate you Alan on the recent improvements in the latest Hi-Fi + and what appears to be an intent to review more reasonably priced equipment. Even a number of £11K or less products looks realistic compared with past excesses. Only blot was the rather sketchy review of the Croft gear from Absolute Sound which started of positive but seemed to damn with faint praise towards the end.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

OK, sorry. You are sick of it. Some of us aren't. I can understand why some of us who aren't sick of it come round here to explain their position. If you are sick of it all, why are you still here?

You talk about hangers on and trough munchers... I didn't see you giving up your weekend to talk to prospective newcomers about music and making it sound better. Who knows, perhaps you stand to benefit from this, because someone might have been wholly switched on by the event, went looking for good sounds and ended up on eBay in your store.

How many people under 30 can aspire to a £100k system? About as many as can aspire to a £100k Ferrari, or a £10k quilted-flame PRS 10-top guitar. And how many people under 30 will end up peering through the window of that Ferrari dealers or the guitar shop and think "if only..."? And how many of those "if onlys" end up buying a six year old Alfa coupé or a £500 PRS SE? The point of all this isn't to turn people into £100k hi-fi buyers, it's to make them re-learn to want to aspire to become a £100k hi-fi buyer, and then to buy something more down to earth.

You can't even read my post can you!! I am not sick of hi-fi, I am not sick of posting on forums, I am not sick of giving my opinion, I am not sick of music. I am *specifically* sick of the comment that I was mistreated by the industry, which you come out with yet again. AND yet again I was not mistreated by the industry, the industry was taken over, and then those members of the cartel created the conditions where the major part of it was forced into closing. It didn't happen to me, I am chronicling what happened in the industry - did it sink in this time?

I wouldn't have been seen dead with you lot, I haven't even read a hi-fi magazine since 1999, I am only interested in users now not the industry insiders, hangers on and minions, but there again I might have if I had known about it. Interesting we (my wife and I) were on a walk along the Thames path at about 8.30pm and back over Hungerford (Charing Cross) Bridge and we heard a live outdoor rock concert going on on the roof or balcony of the building next to the festival hall.

Well yet again the mind set is wrong, for the 40's and above generation you are right, they do aspire, but the yoof couldn't give a toss. All they aspire to is something different to what the boring old farts aspire to, be that music or replay systems - that is until they become the new boring old farts :lolsign:

[Welder]

Alan Sircom wrote;

“it's to make them re-learn to want to aspire to become a £100k hi-fi buyer, and then to buy something more down to earth.”

Why?

I don’t agree with your earlier comments regarding ADS within the young either. Is there any evidence that a particular generation is unable to concentrate on what they consider to be important/entertaining/relevant to their lifestyle?

I’ve read this “I gave the uninitiated an opportunity to listen to my high end Hi Fi equipment and they weren’t impressed or respectful enough to fully appreciate my magnificent system and/or my taste in music” elsewhere on this forum recently ;)

[Alan]

Thanks, but the whole album thing is not just for the newbies. It's quite shocking how much we all distract ourselves from 'just listening', even while we are listening.

Greg Wilson noticed this first when playing gigs. A really good DJ set - especially one from a 'name' - ends up with a dancefloor full of people hardly moving, facing the DJ and recording the event. It's no longer being there, but "Look, I was there!", and they cease to be active participants in the process, but instead passive equipment stands for a smartphone.

Attention spans are shrinking massively (and blame for that one really cannot be laid at the feet of the hi-fi industry). Despite telling people to respect the record, there was still a contingent of people txting their friends, telling them how great it was to listen to an album - they weren't listening, they were txting! I've noticed that when I listen to an album (assuming I'm not reviewing), the distractions creeping in.

The active listening experience, especially as a shared experience, is a lot more intense than even we give it credit these days. The Syd Barrett Madcap Laughs event at the Idea Generation Gallery in Shoreditch at the end of March was a real eye-opener for me; not just because the LP was played on hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of equipment, or because it was the first time in years I'd seen a hundred people (some born in the 1980s or even 1990s) listening to a record, but because of the intensity of the experience.

It's nothing new. In fact, it's something quite old. But it's something all of us have lost to a lesser or greater extent. And it's a tale worth retelling time and again. Try it.


Hi Alan,

Interesting points, particularly wrt attention spans. I have to say that I never played my iPod on shuffle because that's not how albums are conceived. What I will confess too, with a little twinge of semi-guilt, is listening to an album at the end of a long day with newsnight on, reading the subtitles! (Insert embarrassed smilie here). I suppose that's just the result of a busy life and a large family. When I do get to listen properly I appreciate the space and time to devote my full attention to the music (not the system) without distraction.

I agree that such a listening experience may be new or alien to many people, or lack any appeal whatsoever. My wife has almost no interest in listening this way, she can't understand my interest and I can't understand lack of it.

I hope the visceral experience of communal music listening still gets people going, though I have to say I too notice people at concerts texting more & more. If they can't appreciate the main event, how will they enjoy a HiFi - which with the best will in the world (-and budget) only gets you part - way there?

[worthingpagan]

OK, sorry. You are sick of it. Some of us aren't. I can understand why some of us who aren't sick of it come round here to explain their position. If you are sick of it all, why are you still here?

You talk about hangers on and trough munchers... I didn't see you giving up your weekend to talk to prospective newcomers about music and making it sound better. Who knows, perhaps you stand to benefit from this, because someone might have been wholly switched on by the event, went looking for good sounds and ended up on eBay in your store.

How many people under 30 can aspire to a £100k system? About as many as can aspire to a £100k Ferrari, or a £10k quilted-flame PRS 10-top guitar. And how many people under 30 will end up peering through the window of that Ferrari dealers or the guitar shop and think "if only..."? And how many of those "if onlys" end up buying a six year old Alfa coupé or a £500 PRS SE? The point of all this isn't to turn people into £100k hi-fi buyers, it's to make them re-learn to want to aspire to become a £100k hi-fi buyer, and then to buy something more down to earth.

Can I ask why you are getting personal?

[Alan Sircom]

Alan Sircom wrote;

“it's to make them re-learn to want to aspire to become a £100k hi-fi buyer, and then to buy something more down to earth.”

Why?

I don’t agree with your earlier comments regarding ADS within the young either. Is there any evidence that a particular generation is unable to concentrate on what they consider to be important/entertaining/relevant to their lifestyle?

I’ve read this “I gave the uninitiated an opportunity to listen to my high end Hi Fi equipment and they weren’t impressed or respectful enough to fully appreciate my magnificent system and/or my taste in music” elsewhere on this forum recently ;)

Why? Because audio has no aspirational qualities for the uninitiated anymore. The purpose of this was mostly to show that we still can build good stuff, but it was also to help rebuild - even on the smallest possible level - aspiration once again.

If you visit any purveyor of luxury goods in almost any other part of the planet, when you walk into the showroom, you are greeted by the most expensive, most extravagant thing in the shop. It's in the window to increase desire. Audio - and expressly audio in the UK - sells itself chronically short.

As to ADS, it's not the young. It's all of us. None of us have the attention span we used to anymore. There are too many distractions.

[griffo104]

How many people under 30 can aspire to a £100k system? About as many as can aspire to a £100k Ferrari, or a £10k quilted-flame PRS 10-top guitar. And how many people under 30 will end up peering through the window of that Ferrari dealers or the guitar shop and think "if only..."? And how many of those "if onlys" end up buying a six year old Alfa coupé or a £500 PRS SE? The point of all this isn't to turn people into £100k hi-fi buyers, it's to make them re-learn to want to aspire to become a £100k hi-fi buyer, and then to buy something more down to earth.

Not sure about under 30, under 50 or 60 in some cases :lolsign:

We all love to look at aspirational components, be they cars or hifi. Hearing a BIG hifi years ago made me want to go there and I saved up a lot pennies from my meagre job at the time to purchase my first Linn setup - when I say save up I do actually mean the best part of year to get the £2400 it then cost (Mimik, Majik and Keilidhs). At the time I went without beer and other home comforts to make the sacrifice to save the money up. I'm not so sure hifi is something people of my then age, are willing to do now.

It's good see Linn bringing out some of the DS kit at various price points and with amps built in for all in systems to cater for the change in digital music systems - I know some on here will disagree with me but for me this is the way hifi will go eventually.

I mention the Playstation in my earlier post for the simple reason these things can form a hub to the future of getting younger people in to music and integrate with an amp and speakers to show them how much better it can get. The Likes of Sony are doing what Linn and Naim are trying to do a much smaller cost (and yes I agree they sell millions more), it's a way to get the next generation involved in wanting aspirational hifi.

As for looking in to aspirational products, as a 40 year old, I drool looking in to the windows at the Pateks and Zeniths but decide to wear an Oris - no matter what age you are it still happens and it will be a sad day when it stops :)

[Alan Sircom]

You can't even read my post can you!! I am not sick of hi-fi, I am not sick of posting on forums, I am not sick of giving my opinion, I am not sick of music. I am *specifically* sick of the comment that I was mistreated by the industry, which you come out with yet again. AND yet again I was not mistreated by the industry, the industry was taken over, and then those members of the cartel created the conditions where the major part of it was forced into closing. It didn't happen to me, I am chronicling what happened in the industry - did it sink in this time?

I wouldn't have been seen dead with you lot, I haven't even read a hi-fi magazine since 1999, I am only interested in users now not the industry insiders, hangers on and minions, but there again I might have if I had known about it. Interesting we (my wife and I) were on a walk along the Thames path at about 8.30pm and back over Hungerford (Charing Cross) Bridge and we heard a live outdoor rock concert going on on the roof or balcony of the building next to the festival hall.

Well yet again the mind set is wrong, for the 40's and above generation you are right, they do aspire, but the yoof couldn't give a toss. All they aspire to is something different to what the boring old farts aspire to, be that music or replay systems - that is until they become the new boring old farts :lolsign:


Maybe you are right. Perhaps whatever we do will fall flat to anyone under 40. But 'whatever we do' entails doing something. As opposed to doing nothing.

You are only interested in 'users' and yet you seem set on dismissing any attempt at trying to create new ones. Why?

[Alan Sircom]

Can I ask why you are getting personal?

I didn't think I was, but I am upset that trying something - anything - to try and help slow the inevitable is met with such hostility.

[Neil McCauley]

I didn't think I was, but I am upset that trying something - anything - to try and help slow the inevitable is met with such hostility.

I'm not surprised. But then again, as I've so often been told - "AoS is a broad church!"

I no longer start threads here. Some of the time it's futile.

At least journalists aren't as loathed here by some AoS members as 'the trade' are. Your lot sit in the gutter whereas my lot apparently slosh about in the sewer. Stick around and you might get used to it.

[griffo104]

Why? Because audio has no aspirational qualities for the uninitiated anymore. The purpose of this was mostly to show that we still can build good stuff, but it was also to help rebuild - even on the smallest possible level - aspiration once again.

If you visit any purveyor of luxury goods in almost any other part of the planet, when you walk into the showroom, you are greeted by the most expensive, most extravagant thing in the shop. It's in the window to increase desire. Audio - and expressly audio in the UK - sells itself chronically short.

As to ADS, it's not the young. It's all of us. None of us have the attention span we used to anymore. There are too many distractions.

Aspirational goods now come to things like phones, ipads and ipods.

On my N8 I can download music, and surf the internet - which for youngsters read Facebook or Twitter for us old 'uns read AOS. Last week I ended up watching Top Gear on the iplayer on my N8 as I'd missed it and the PS3 was at another place.

With kit like this hopw do you get people to sit and relax and enjoy an album of an evening. I work in IT where some people earn pretty decent money (better than the average salary I would say) and yet I'M the strange one for sitting down and listening to an album of an evening - most sit here at work ipods on, earphones in, playing snippets of music while they work, without paying too much attention to music itself. I had to stop taking my MP3 player to work because I stopped work to enjoy what I was listening to :lolsign:

These aren't kids, the average age is well over 40.

[Marco]

You can't even read my post can you!! I am not sick of hi-fi, I am not sick of posting on forums, I am not sick of giving my opinion, I am not sick of music. I am *specifically* sick of the comment that I was mistreated by the industry, which you come out with yet again. AND yet again I was not mistreated by the industry, the industry was taken over, and then those members of the cartel created the conditions where the major part of it was forced into closing. It didn't happen to me, I am chronicling what happened in the industry - did it sink in this time?


I didn't think I was, but I am upset that trying something - anything - to try and help slow the inevitable is met with such hostility.


Indeed... Richard, please watch your aggressive/ill-tempered responses (highlighted in bold, above, for your reference), when someone doesn't immediately grasp what you want them to grasp. There is simply no excuse to address people in that tone.

Your posting style has been *much* better of late, so let's not see it slip back to what it was before that - ta! :cool:

Marco.

[Alan Sircom]

Alan this is a great idea but it is a pity that the classic album thing is so London centric so far. I think it would be a good idea to get the interested manufacturers to repeat this at some of the Home entertainment / lifestyle shows or even large record fairs around the country. It then could extend to more recent music though much of the 'popular' stuff suffers from production values that may grate through a high end set up.

It's kind of spreading, but slowly. In fairness, Colleen's only been doing this since November last year. She's London based, so the Hanbury Arms seems obvious. Rega tried it a Bristol this year, with mixed success. Andy from Loud & Clear runs sessions in Scotland and I think Greg (Wilson) does some in Merseyside. I'm trying to co-ordinate an event on the Sunday at Whittlebury Hall and itching to do my own events, but want to do this right and give Cosmo the props she deserves for starting this ball rolling.

[Marco]

Hi Howard,


I'm not surprised. But then again, as I've so often been told - "AoS is a broad church!"

I no longer start threads here. Some of the time it's futile.

At least journalists aren't as loathed here by some AoS members as 'the trade' are. Your lot sit in the gutter whereas my lot apparently slosh about in the sewer. Stick around and you might get used to it.

I think that's rather unfair and totally uncalled for. You just go on a 'girly strop' sometimes when you don't get things ALL your own way! ;)

With respect, I suggest that you learn to accept how things are here, or not bother visiting, as your continual petulant outbursts are wearing rather thin.

Marco.

[Alan Sircom]

I'm not surprised. But then again, as I've so often been told - "AoS is a broad church!"

I no longer start threads here. Some of the time it's futile.

At least journalists aren't as loathed here by some AoS members as 'the trade' are. Your lot sit in the gutter whereas my lot apparently slosh about in the sewer. Stick around and you might get used to it.

It's OK. I usually have a thick skin about stuff, but this one seems to have really got to me. I think I had a bit of an epiphany moment about music in general over the weekend. The Joy Division album especially. Not in a 'it was the best sound I've ever heard' way (although in fairness it did sound pretty damn good, under the circumstances), but more in something more Jungian.

I'm pretty used to listening to music, but perhaps it was the communal aspect or the fact I haven't heard Closer in full since we played it after a friend's funeral in the early 1980s (lots of people there, including Mark Moore who introduced the album, had brushes with death and suicide and Closer). Whatever, it got under my skin. Which is what music should do.

[Marco]

Ian, gloating doesn't help, so I've removed your last post.

Marco.

[griffo104]

It's OK. I usually have a thick skin about stuff, but this one seems to have really got to me. I think I had a bit of an epiphany moment about music in general over the weekend. The Joy Division album especially. Not in a 'it was the best sound I've ever heard' way (although in fairness it did sound pretty damn good, under the circumstances), but more in something more Jungian.

I'm pretty used to listening to music, but perhaps it was the communal aspect or the fact I haven't heard Closer in full since we played it after a friend's funeral in the early 1980s (lots of people there, including Mark Moore who introduced the album, had brushes with death and suicide and Closer). Whatever, it got under my skin. Which is what music should do.

It's great when you have those moments. It may well have been the communal listening to Closer, it's usually done on your own in a darkened room. Wonderful album. Great talent lost to us too early as well.

[Welder]

While I don’t agree with much of what you write Alan Sircom, I can’t help feeling a certain amount of respect for your willingness to post on these forums defending your view of the industry without resorting to the endless bickering and flaming in what could be seen as a trade wary and sometimes hostile environment.

I hope you stay ;)

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Maybe you are right. Perhaps whatever we do will fall flat to anyone under 40. But 'whatever we do' entails doing something. As opposed to doing nothing.

You are only interested in 'users' and yet you seem set on dismissing any attempt at trying to create new ones. Why?

It seems when I reply to you you twist my statements and assign things to me I have neither said nor done, so what is the point?

You are doing it again here - read the thread - I complimented you on the effort, but I then followed up with it not being the answer to the question posed in this thread - remember? or go back and read it again.

I do not dismiss and never have done any attempts to create new customers, I welcome them. My comments were addressed to being *on-topic* with the thread.

If this industry is really interested in creating new customers they should create some loss leader products to get people into the market instead of expecting them to find the proceeds of a years worth of disposable income just to get a start - sorry it is just plain bloody ridiculous that you cannot get even a half way decent home system from an independent hi-fi retailer for under £2000 unless you buy 2nd hand or buy from on-line traders who don't supply retail so haven't got the retail margin on their products. That will be far more successful than this effort, admirable as it was.

First time buyers get some perks in house buying perhaps we need to do the same.

[MCRU]

Somewhere in these 33 pages some are losing the plot, no need whatsoever for bickering and jibes, personal insults, know it all attitude, I am right you are wrong, I thought I was on the wigwam there for a minute. I have noticed certain members seem to have a need to take out some sort of frustration on this forum, why?

The hifi mags are suffering, the hifi bricks and mortar dealers are suffering we are still in recession but there is money about, what most people seem to miss is that life is different now than 10 or 20 years ago, we did not have wi-fi, we did not have the web via lightning fast broadband, it took 15 mins sometimes just to get connected using dial up, no xbox's or social networking, we played in the street and left our doors open at night, this generation will NEVER go into a hifi shop, they may get what hi-fi because it will have something appealing on the front cover, certainly not a 50k pair of speakers for sure so this current generation who are lost in their obsession with googling everything whilst listening to crappy mp3's via that invention of the century (not) the i-phone or i-pad which they can also watch you tube and twit whilst posting on facebook and organising the weekends party, guys these people will never be into hi-fi until they are married and their kids have grown up which is why we are all on the AOS posting rather silly comments about why youngsters do not buy hifi equipment, and they will never buy the other hifi mags because they are too technical looking

[WAD62]

It's great when you have those moments. It may well have been the communal listening to Closer, it's usually done on your own in a darkened room. Wonderful album. Great talent lost to us too early as well.

Timeless stuff...;)

[Alan Sircom]

Aspirational goods now come to things like phones, ipads and ipods.

On my N8 I can download music, and surf the internet - which for youngsters read Facebook or Twitter for us old 'uns read AOS. Last week I ended up watching Top Gear on the iplayer on my N8 as I'd missed it and the PS3 was at another place.

With kit like this hopw do you get people to sit and relax and enjoy an album of an evening. I work in IT where some people earn pretty decent money (better than the average salary I would say) and yet I'M the strange one for sitting down and listening to an album of an evening - most sit here at work ipods on, earphones in, playing snippets of music while they work, without paying too much attention to music itself. I had to stop taking my MP3 player to work because I stopped work to enjoy what I was listening to :lolsign:

These aren't kids, the average age is well over 40.

It's a real issue, yes. It may be there's no solution. That people simply don't have the time anymore to listen to albums in their entirety. The CAS experience is somewhat alien to people today; it's like enforcing 20 years ago on people.

[Tim]

While I don’t agree with much of what you write Alan Sircom, I can’t help feeling a certain amount of respect for your willingness to post on these forums defending your view of the industry without resorting to the endless bickering and flaming in what could be seen as a trade wary and sometimes hostile environment.

I hope you stay ;)
Nicely put John and I wholeheartedly agree, very refreshing to have such things openly discussed without it spiralling out of control ;)

[WAD62]

There may also be factors in the general disinterest of today's younger generation towards traditional Hi-Fi...they probably don't have anywhere to put it even if they were interested in buying it.

The current average first-time house buyer age is about 38ish, according to some survey I read a couple of months ago (can't recall where unfortunately :doh:). It's a bit difficult to start meddling with wires and boxes etc. when you don't even have your own place.

Then there's the student grant debts etc.

Compact and cheap is more desirable than ever...IMHO ;)

[WAD62]

Nicely put John and I wholeheartedly agree, very refreshing to have such things openly discussed without it spiralling out of control ;)

+1

[Alan Sircom]

While I don’t agree with much of what you write Alan Sircom, I can’t help feeling a certain amount of respect for your willingness to post on these forums defending your view of the industry without resorting to the endless bickering and flaming in what could be seen as a trade wary and sometimes hostile environment.

I hope you stay ;)

It wouldn't be worth the effort if everyone felt the same way about everything .

[MCRU]

Hi Alan,
It would be nice to see some modestly priced gear being reviewed in your mag sometime?

Thanks

[Marco]

Indeed, but I guess that's not why most people buy Hi-Fi+...... You have to cater for the needs of your target audience :)

Marco.

[chelsea]

Well done for your efforts.
I think music like comedy is good to watch/listen with a crowd all sharing in the experience.

At least your making an experience for people that hopefully will make then want there own 2 channel system.

I was lucky enough to see joy division in the 70s.

[Tim]

I was lucky enough to see joy division in the 70s.
:respect:

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Indeed... Richard, please watch your aggressive/ill-tempered responses (highlighted in bold, above, for your reference), when someone doesn't immediately grasp what you want them to grasp. There is simply no excuse to address people in that tone.

Your posting style has been *much* better of late, so let's not see it slip back to what it was before that - ta! :cool:

Marco.

If you read the thread you will see I was being hit with personal comments - yet again. Why is someone else aggression is palmed off as mine, and if you see his latest post he still is being aggressive.

How about some equality in moderating here.

[Marco]

It's nothing to do with that, Richard. I highlighted the unacceptable language and tone you used towards Alan, so the proof is there. They are your words, no-one else's. I've told you before, if you feel you're being "hit by personal comments", or other similar 'attacks', then HIT THE REPORT POST BUTTON, and I will deal with it.

You MUST moderate your aggressive posting style, and let me deal with any problem situations, if you are to remain here. I will NOT say this again!

Now, please respect my decision and abide it. Any further 'back-chat' will result in your posts being removed, without further warning, followed by an immediate week's ban.

Marco.

[Marco]

Richard,

Do you understand English and know when to SHUT THE FUCK UP?? Obviously not! When I tell you to do something, you do it and like it - end of.

'Back-chat' deleted and week's ban now imposed.

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

hi All,
only just read through this thread, anyway, i can [hopefully] mention something that has already been hinted at that may get this thread back on topic.:eyebrows:
My partner and i had un-expected visitors one evening, they sat and spent most of the evening looking at my partners computer, anyway, we got onto the subject of my business, now the one enquiring was a 20 year old, so, i thought rather than try to explain what i did for a living i would show her my system [ooh err :eek:] her first reaction was encouraging as she complimented me on the look of some of the units, however, she then enquired why there was one chair directly centred towards the system, and after i had explained, she said, "what, you actualy sit there and just listen to music" after that, i realised how diffrent her world must be to the one i had up untill that moment taken for granted as the norm, for me anyway!
I still think, if you are genuinelly interested in something, no matter what age, you will seek it out, but, i also realise that due to the limited chances the young get to listen to truly top notch music, played on exceptionaly good systems, the more the majority of the young will probably react in a similar way to the young lady that visited us that evening.
Therefore, i aplaude anyone and everyone for organising and attending events that continue to grab the attention of the young, and enlightening them.
Anthony,TD...

[George47]

Alan,

Nice idea and even some of us over 37 3/4 may enjoy such an event.

It may be worth having a note on a web page with the 'latest events' listed accepting there will not be 100Ks hifi appearing evertime.

Like the wam show a new idea that adds some interest to the usual stuff.

And please do not become What Hifi Mk II as some of us still like to read about aspirational as well as affordable hifi.

Right when are going to finish the room acoustics articles off, it is not as though you were doing anything last weekend anyway...:eyebrows:

[Marco]

hi All,
only just read through this thread, anyway, i can [hopefully] mention something that has already been hinted at that may get this thread back on topic.:eyebrows:
My partner and i had un-expected visitors one evening, they sat and spent most of the evening looking at my partners computer, anyway, we got onto the subject of my business, now the one enquiring was a 20 year old, so, i thought rather than try to explain what i did for a living i would show her my system [ooh err :eek:] her first reaction was encouraging as she complimented me on the look of some of the units, however, she then enquired why there was one chair directly centred towards the system, and after i had explained, she said, "what, you actualy sit there and just listen to music" after that, i realised how diffrent her world must be to the one i had up untill that moment taken for granted as the norm, for me anyway!
I still think, if you are genuinelly interested in something, no matter what age, you will seek it out, but, i also realise that due to the limited chances the young get to listen to truly top notch music, played on exceptionaly good systems, the more the majority of the young will probably react in a similar way to the young lady that visited us that evening.
Therefore, i aplaude anyone and everyone for organising and attending events that continue to grab the attention of the young, and enlightening them.


Never mind that, daftee, what did she think of your system? :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

[Audioman]

Hi Alan,
It would be nice to see some modestly priced gear being reviewed in your mag sometime?

Thanks

If you buy this months Hi-Fi + you may find there is now a trend and intention to review more real world products. Of course there are a number of expensive to uber expensive items still but they are at least of general interest to the aspiring enthusiast and available in the UK. First edition I have thought worth purchasing for ages after a flip through in W H Smith.

[Alex_UK]

and a system made up of Bowers & Wilkins (the sponsor)

Interestingly, B&W are one of the better manufacturers, IMO - in terms of getting "out there" - their Twitter feed is probably one of the best hifi related ones available, with regular links to interesting articles, music reviews and of course - their own products. Their Facebook page is pretty good too, and with nearly 6,000 "followers" on Twitter and almost 14,000 "Likes" on Facebook I reckon they have probably invested a lot of effort into building their social media communities, and seem to genuinely get involved in real music projects.

And, do you think all the Zeppelin owners out there don't consider it to be a "hifi" or that they are any less a music lover because they have an iPod and dock? Maybe people are still into hifi, its just that the notion of hifi has changed - perhaps the traditional separates systems that we all love just don't appeal any more.

[Stratmangler]

perhaps the traditional separates systems that we all love just don't appeal any more.

Maybe the traditional separates system has little relevance today.
I look at my system and see a TT and a Squeezebox as the two main sources.
The Squeezebox feeds a Beresford Caiman DAC, which works as a digital switch and also brings TV audio over the system.
Actually, looking at it from the TV into Caiman end there's also an X-Box and a Wii feeding the TV, which in turn feeds the Caiman, so in this house there's 2 digital hub points before any amplification takes place.

If you look beyond the Squeezebox, you can then substitute this for any drive based media storage, so you're in the realms of iPod, iPhone, Android phone, HDD etc.

And before anyone asks, I'm hitting the big half century next time around ;)

[Marco]

Hi Alan,


While I don't disagree with a lot of this, that is rather a broad brush you are using to sweep away much of the last 30 years of audio.


Well, obviously I can only comment on what my experience (and ears) tell me, and whenever I compare the sort of kit I use to often MUCH more expensive equipment currently being produced, it more often than not falls WAY short, sonically... :(

In my opinion, in terms of out-and-out audio quality, we've gone backwards more than forwards in the last 30 years with much of the kit being produced now. It's mainly only if you value convenience or miniaturisation and/or 'gadgetry' more than what delivers the ultimate best sound quality, that some *real* progress has been made in the audio industry. Count me out!!

In much of today's equipment I see cheap plastic DVD-ROM mechanisms used in some even quite expensive CDPs, and horrible, electrically noisy, switch-mode power supplies, where at one time there were solidly engineered dedicated CD-only mechanisms and heavy-duty over-specified linear PSUs, resulting in CDPs that were built like a veritable 'brick shithouse', and consequently sounded superb (if now needing some of their internal components upgraded with the best that are currently available).

My Sony CDP and DAC weigh 20KG each, and that's because of how massively over-engineered they are, and the huge PSUs used inside, making the vast majority of modern CDPs sound (and feel) like toys, especially when the Sony combo's 'well past their sell by date' internal components were replaced with Black Gate capacitors, etc, and key modifications to PSU arrangements implemented, along with re-clocking, etc, all to the highest specification.

And I've yet to hear a computer audio set-up which can match my modified vintage CDP/DAC combo (and trust me, I've heard some good ones!) Whilst good, most are unable to shake off an artificial 'processed' quality, in terms of how they reproduce music, compared to how it is reproduced through my Sony combo. I put a lot of this down to the sonically detrimental effect of the 'el cheapo' SMPS units used in most computer audio sources, and how that impacts not only in the performance of the equipment concerned, but also on the system used as a whole.

I see loudspeakers being made these days with the accent more on 'WAF factor' than on what is likely to produce a convincing sound which resembles as close as possible that of real instruments, and largely voiced in such a falsely 'pumped up', in-yer-face way, as to make one wonder if whoever is designing them has actually heard what real instruments sound like!! :rolleyes:

Multiple arrays of tiny drive units in tall, slim, 'pretty' boxes (as is the norm mostly these days), IMO, do not make realistic sounding music. You need to shift some air! It's no coincidence therefore that the best speakers I've heard have all been high-efficiency designs, with 15-inch drivers in huge (wide-baffle) cabinets.

I could go on... The point I'm making, however, is that although there is still some good stuff made today, the majority of it to my ears falls way short of what is possible from the best vintage gear, especially when judiciously modified with modern components.


Audio does hit plateaus, especially when faced with time, money and resources directed away from the subject into more immediately lucrative projects (like home cinema in the 1990s). However, there are periodic 'leap forward' products that do make an overall benefit to the pantheon of audio components. And no, not all of them are expensive; the HRT Streamer II+ (especially the new one) does things to file-based audio that you'd struggle to match anywhere in hi-fi. The little CEntrance USB headphone DAC is another such device. And at the other end, the Devialet D-Premier still represents an improvement over what went before for many people (valve lovers tend not to agree).


I agree with the bit in bold, and you have cited some valid examples.

However, when you've heard the amazing (and indeed astonishing) results that are possible when you give, say, £5k, to a very talented and experienced audio designer, and tell him to build you a 'no compromise' amplifier, who operates a small, specialist, business from his home (such as some people on this forum), and where that £5k is then invested solely in his time and the best components money can buy (instead of in a 'fancy box' and numerous commercial overheads and the built-in 'prestige value' of a 'desirable badge', like when buying kit from a known 'hi-end' hi-fi manufacturer), you'll forgive me if I have little motivation in spending three times that amount (or more) to arrive at the same (or worse) result, simply to own one such 'desirable badge' ;)


Vintage aside (the name of the event kind of sets the tone), a lot of people today equate all technology with the disposable culture of today. To some, audio's obsession with old technology is indicative of just how out of step we are with the modern world. To suggest a 1980s Sony transport and DAC (no matter how good it is in reality) is as good as or even better than current technology is met with the sort of derision you might get from saying a Model T Ford is faster and safer than a new Mondeo. To the people we are trying to reach, a CD is an 'antique' and LP is a 'relic'.


Yes, but much of that is simply to do with ignorance. In my experience, when you show such people what is possible with the best vintage gear (especially when suitably modified), it most certainly opens their eyes and ears!


That said, there is a strong retro/counter-culture movement in the young that buys LPs, plays them on equipment from the 1970s and enjoys the whole experience that brings. However, the driving force behind the movement is as much basking in the 1970s retro-chic of the equipment than it is a drive toward intrinsically better sound. Some of these systems sound great, some sound truly awful, but that doesn't matter it seems.


Oh yes, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of crap vintage gear out there too, none of which I'd give house room. But in my experience, the best vintage gear, especially loudspeakers, is easily able to compete, and in many cases outperform, much of what is made today - and at considerably less cost. Sound-per-pound value is something which most people will prioritise in achieving, and something we focus very much on here on AoS.

Incidentally, I certainly don't use vintage gear to "bask in 1970s retro-chic"...perish the thought, lol! I use it simply because, in comparison to what I have, I find most modern hi-fi disappoints in terms of its sonic performance, and it's because much of it is voiced by manufacturers in order to create the currently ubiquitous 'commercially fashionable sound', which in my experience bears little resemblance to the sound of real instruments and voices whenever I hear them live and un-amplified.

To my ears, we have definitely lost something in terms of how most modern equipment reproduces music. Realistic 'tone' (and I don't mean a 'warm & cuddly' sound), which one hears with the best vintage gear, has in most cases been traded for an artificially thin and forward sound, robbing music of the body it needs in order to sound convincing, making it sound reedy, 'bleached out' and 'artificially processed'. That's certainly what I usually hear whenever I do the comparison.


So it's not about you downgrading your system, it's about you not clouding the waters for people about to dip their toe in.

Sure, but on AoS we simply tell it as we hear it and inform people of the choices that are available, either through the commercial or DIY route, or a mixture of both. It's not about clouding the waters; it's about providing a reality check and informing those who may not know any better that the 'latest & greatest' new thing in audio is not always automatically the best! :)

Marco.

[griffo104]

Indeed, but I guess that's not why most people buy Hi-Fi+...... You have to cater for the needs of your target audience :)

Marco.

Agreed. As a very long time Hifi+ reader I actually want to read about aspirational hifi and rare kit not so easily found in the UK.

Magazines need to decide what they want to be and aim for the reader. Even though Hifi Choice started me on my hifi quest a very long time ago I've always disliked the general layout. I much prefer the review style of Hifi+ and Stereophile who seem to actually live withth ecomponent, try and describe what it does sound like and put it in to some form of context. I dislike seeing a mark out of 10 and a simple couple of paragraphs. It doesn't tell me what I want to know.

As for reviewing affordable gear, I'm sure not so long ago they reviewed the Cambridge Audio setup.

I also read Stereophile and again you get the impression that the reviewer has lived with the component, tried to get the best out of it. I never really get the feeling with the magazines although at some point I've subscribed to all of them.

I enjoy reading hifi mags but I enjoy reading them when they are telling me about kit I've no real chance of owning.

If I want to buy new kit then I go out and listen to it, either at a dealers or through a forum bake off. What the magazines do give is an excellent background knowledge of kit when looking at the 2nd hand market, thanks to that I managed to peg my Audio Analogue Maestro cd player for the rather giveaway price of £500. Simply due to them not being fashionable and not big on the 2nd hand market. It's a truly wonderful cd player but a steal at that price.

Magazines have their place and I also agree it would be a sad day when they disappear off the shelves and purely on to the internet.

[Havana]

Have found this thread fascinating, albeit infused with too much spite and bitterness I could do without.

Getting back to the original point about HIFI Choice's uncertain future, I believe that some of the current plight of the mags in truly self-inflicted. For example, if you go to the web-site of one of "Choice's" main competitors and try to subscribe, you'll find a banner advertising a special "Christmas 2010 Subscription offer" that you cannot access. You'll then find that a standard UK subscription price offers no saving on the cover price !!

Another key competitor has chosen to make the cover story and major 5 page review a set of speakers that cost 49K! Surely aimed at the nichest of niche markets ??

[sq225917]

The magazines seem to think that because they are printed media they can ignore or forget about their online presence. Plush and Critic seem to be doing something about this, one with an online and I-ready version and the other with their own useful forum. It's a start, but hardly feeding into the youth market.

I applaud Alan's efforts with the Classic Albums sessions, hopefully the opportunity will arise for him to do something more youth focussed, maybe a newer album, a simultaneous podcast, maybe even the musician turning up for the event and chat back.

It'd be nice to see things truly move on, I wonder if the industry is capable of the change needed.

[anthonyTD]

Never mind that, daftee, what did she think of your system? :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.
hi Marco,
unfortunetly she didnt get to hear it that evening as it wasnt on, also, that wasnt realy the point i was trying to get across.:)
Anthony,TD...

[Marco]

Sure, mate, but it would've been interesting to have known what she thought... I don't think I'd have missed the opportunity, as I always enjoy discovering what 'non-hi-fi people' think of my system because they tend to be very honest! ;)

Marco.

[WAD62]

I was lucky enough to see joy division in the 70s.

...I managed to catch them supporting the Buzzcocks at the Manchester Apollo in '79...Mr Curtis certainly had stage presence ;)

[Marco]

Just another point about creating an 'aspirational' side of hi-end audio, which I understand and acknowledge there being some benefit in that approach, particularly in terms of the future health of the industry.

However, personally, I see more overall benefit (certainly for the end user) in educating the uninitiated on how best to achieve the biggest 'bang for their buck', when assembling a system, by judiciously modifying the best vintage gear, or buying equipment and ancillaries from small, specialist manufacturers who, because of low overheads, are able to produce equipment which punches way above its weight, sonically, than guiding them towards achieving merely a snippet of what is possible from a six-figure 'pie in the sky' system that they will most likely never own.

Marco.

[MartinT]

...a fascinating vox pop!

Here we are online, enjoying the amazing interactivity the medium has to offer, all saying we prefer the printed word!

Not me. I'm forcing myself to subscribe to all my mags electronically on Zinio, that way I get to read them at work, at home and on the move as it suits me. I'll be able to keep them all and perform powerful searches across issues for the things I'm looking for. I won't need to bother my recycle bin.

So when will World appear on Zinio, David? :)

[MartinT]

Ah.... a classic shot of a Windows 7 user after his PC crashes yet again while trying to install yet another fix. :D

Don't you start! I have two great W7 PCs at work and home. They both run 24/7 and they don't crash. My W7 laptop absolutely slaughters my iPad for usability. Sheesh, the brainwashing that Apple do to people... :)

[griffo104]

Just another point about creating an 'aspirational' side of hi-end audio, which I understand and acknowledge there being some benefit in that approach, particularly in terms of the future health of the industry.

However, personally, I see more overall benefit (certainly for the end user) in educating the uninitiated on how best to achieve the biggest 'bang for their buck', when assembling a system, by judiciously modifying the best vintage gear, or buying equipment from small, specialist manufacturers who, because of low overheads, are able to produce equipment which punches way above its weight, sonically, than guiding them towards achieving merely a snippet of what is possible from a six-figure 'pie in the sky' system that they will most likely never own.

Marco.

The biggest problem is getting them from nothing to something - after that's where the BIGGEST improvement is.

Once they get an appreciation of what a good hifi can bring from their music listening then they can choose and tailor their tastes.

I'm the opposite of your thinking, I think getting a really good budget system together can really show them what a little cost can bring. for that companies like Denon and Cambridge Audio are perfect as they make good, well built and very nice sounding components.

The performance from the budget Denon I own in my 2nd system amazes me when you take in to cost, performance and features. It proves that cost doesn't need to be the stumbling block in getting started.

I think throwing vintage, modified and serious high end at people can put them off. we all know the law of diminishing returns and nothing is like that first time you hear a proper hifi, even at the low end of the market.

Getting a simple, affordable system, well setup in the listening room will bring a load of pleasure and highlight how great music can be. From their they can use it to start their journey and go down the path they choose or just sit back and enjoy it.

[WAD62]

Sheesh, the brainwashing that Apple do to people... :)

...incredible isn't it, they need some justification for spending twice the money on half the product...even if it is fictitious ;)

Damn, off topic again...sorry Marco :)

[Lodgesound]

I have to say I'm in complete agreement with you Marco regarding the whole "bang for your buck" thing.

Why not show people what can be done within their particular budget range (a range that can be greatly extended in terms of what can be achieved) when dealing with second hand or vintage equipment.

I still see very little point (and would find it a little obscene if done to me) in playing someone a system that they in no way could even aspire to afford no matter how much they wanted to and then to "educate" them in what would inevitably be a series of compromises in relation to what they just heard.

[Marco]

The biggest problem is getting them from nothing to something - after that's where the BIGGEST improvement is.

Once they get an appreciation of what a good hifi can bring from their music listening then they can choose and tailor their tastes.

I'm the opposite of your thinking, I think getting a really good budget system together can really show them what a little cost can bring. for that companies like Denon and Cambridge Audio are perfect as they make good, well built and very nice sounding components.

The performance from the budget Denon I own in my 2nd system amazes me when you take in to cost, performance and features. It proves that cost doesn't need to be the stumbling block in getting started.

I think throwing vintage, modified and serious high end at people can put them off. we all know the law of diminishing returns and nothing is like that first time you hear a proper hifi, even at the low end of the market.

Getting a simple, affordable system, well setup in the listening room will bring a load of pleasure and highlight how great music can be. From their they can use it to start their journey and go down the path they choose or just sit back and enjoy it.

Yup, there's nothing wrong in that approach; indeed it is a very valid one. I would always offer advice based on the specific requirements of the individual, and what they want from a system, which is precisely what I do when faced with that situation on AoS. At the end of the day, it's all about having choices :cool:

Marco.

[WAD62]

I have to say I'm in complete agreement with you Marco regarding the whole "bang for your buck" thing.

Why not show people what can be done within their particular budget range (a range that can be greatly extended in terms of what can be achieved) when dealing with second hand or vintage equipment.

I still see very little point (and would find it a little obscene if done to me) in playing someone a system that they in no way could even aspire to afford no matter how much they wanted to and then to "educate" them in what would inevitably be a series of compromises in relation to what they just heard.

Indeed, something sourced from a laptop or smart phone, an inexpensive DAC, a class-t amp, and some cheap bookshelf speakers.

Something that fits in with their lifestyle and budget.

A lot of people who come round my house are more impressed by my little kitchen setup (an SB receiver with a mini-t amp, and some mission bookshelf speakers), than they are with my main system...:scratch:

[Marco]

Hi Stewart,


I have to say I'm in complete agreement with you Marco regarding the whole "bang for your buck" thing.

Why not show people what can be done within their particular budget range (a range that can be greatly extended in terms of what can be achieved) when dealing with second hand or vintage equipment.

I still see very little point (and would find it a little obscene if done to me) in playing someone a system that they in no way could even aspire to afford no matter how much they wanted to and then to "educate" them in what would inevitably be a series of compromises in relation to what they just heard.

Yup, but I can also see where Griffo is coming from...

One thing I also hate about modern hi-fi is how much of it is no longer built to last in the way equipment once was.

I abhor the 'disposable society' we live in today, as I've always been the type who, with anything, not just hi-fi, bought the best I could afford and used it for years, than something 'cheap & cheerful' which would only last a short while and then mostly likely end up in a skip somewhere.

I've always liked owning things which are unusual/bespoke and hand-built, and not mass-produced and owned by every 'Tom, Dick and Harry' - but I guess that's just me :)

Marco.

[Alan Sircom]

In my opinion, in terms of out-and-out audio quality, we've gone backwards more than forwards in the last 30 years with much of the kit being produced now, unless you value convenience or miniaturisation and/or 'gadgetry' more that what delivers the ultimate best sound quality. Count me out!


I don't disagree with this. It's a crying shame that the only surviving high-grade OEM mechs are the Philips CD-Pro2LF and the VRDS models from TEAC/Esoteric, and if you want CD/SACD compatibility, that pretty much limits you to TEAC/Esoteric. This bumps the price up quite a lot; if a company buys the top mech as an OEM part from from Esoteric, three transport mechs cost as much as the whole bill of materials for a Porsche Boxster.

There are good players still out there and built up to a standard not down to a price, but a lot don't leave Japan anymore (Accuphase, Luxman and Marantz being the notable exceptions).

As I've said earlier, part of the problem today is we are in a disposable culture. The idea of paying for something solidly built is anathema to a society that deems technology to have a half-life of about six months (three years if it's a TV screen).

Another more recent issue is the 'box ticker' mentality. Until recently, CD and CD/SACD players were relatively immune to this, because they were considered an anachronism. However, many fall foul of the 'does it play Blu-ray?' tick-box question. Online, this represents the difference between 'sale' and 'no sale' for many products. Once you go down that multi-standard route, the manufacturer either has to take someone else's player as a base for their own model (and suffer the opprobrium of having that fact 'outed') or pay a quarter of a million dollars in initial manufacturing license fees before you can start the R&D process, and approximately $50k per year in 'top ups'. This works if you can sell BR players by the thousand, not if you make 10 a week.




And I've yet to hear a computer audio set-up which can match my modified vintage CDP/DAC combo (and trust me, I've heard some good ones!) Whilst good, most are unable to shake off an artificial 'processed' quality, in terms of how they reproduce music, compared to how it is reproduced through my Sony combo. I put a lot of this down to the sonically detrimental effect of the SMPS units used in most computer audio sources, and how that impacts not only in the performance of the equipment concerned, but also on the system used as a whole.

Again, I don't disagree. I've heard a handful of music server systems that do approach music with the sort of respect it was given by CD and LP systems, but they are invariably hand built, feature extremely expensive and modified linear power supplies from a lab's test-bench, chamber everything in their own separate faraday cages inside a non-resonant, non-magnetic case and hardly feature any off-the-shelf components. As a consequence, the whole entity is costly... and completely impossible to sell because it affronts the sensibilities of the slashdot set who have a habit of crashing sites with DoS attacks if they feel the company breaks their rules.

I've had some fascinating 'how do we get over this?' discussions with manufacturers, designers, distributors and retailers alike about making file-based audio good, because most of us have had our share of waking up to a thousand emails, death threats and the rest because of mentioning something 'controversial' that gets picked up on computer gearhead sites.

I have heard some excellent file-based systems, and I have to admit a lot of it comes down to the hardware after the files leave the server/computer/NAS drive. But not all of it. However, many companies have discovered to their cost that discussing the bit before the hi-fi hardware lays you open to attack from the Alpha Nerds. For an audio company, fully embracing and investigating file-based systems in a proper manner is essentially suicidal.

For an audio company, not embracing file-based systems is essentially suicidal, too. UK sales of CD players have been lower than sales of turntables for about a year or so now, and yet the UK is considered an exceptionally 'buoyant' market for CD in the English speaking parts of the planet. "It's like CD fell off a cliff" is the cry elsewhere.

So we are stuck. Do too little and the sound is compromised. Do too much and your website is hacked and crashes again and again. This means we stay with PC and Mac solutions and try to make the best of a bad job.




I see loudspeakers being made these days with the accent more on 'WAF factor' than on what is likely to produce a convincing sound which resembles as close as possible the sound of real instruments, and largely voiced in such a falsely 'pumped up', in-yer-face way, as to make one wonder if whoever is designing them has actually heard what real instruments sound like!! :rolleyes:

Multiple arrays of tiny drive units in tall, slim, 'pretty' boxes (as is the norm mostly these days), IMO, do not make realistic sounding music. You need to shift some air! It's no coincidence therefore that the best speakers I've heard have all been high-efficiency designs, with 15-inch drivers in huge (wide-baffle) cabinets.

Yet again, I don't disagree, although some of the best sound I've ever heard came from Townshend Sir Galahads, which were line arrays of ribbon tweeters and mid-bass units (but a floor-to-ceiling design that weighed as much as an Aga is probably not what you were meaning). In the UK, we lost that war decades ago. Ikea and the likes of Barratt Homes helped wreck that particular line of reasoning.

And that highlights one of the gravest concerns for audio today. Because in the unlikely event that someone under the age of about 38 can get on the property ladder today, they typically end up in a tiny living space. I had a 'down the pub' conversation recently with someone who was staying put in their starter home they bought just before the downturn hit, had a couple of grand to spend and wanted to know what speakers would sound good in his 7' x 9' living room. That might be an extreme example, but not so extreme as might first be imagined.

Interestingly, this is a peculiarly UK-based phenomenon. Most audio buyers in other countries either have bigger rooms, separate 'man caves' or are unreconstructed male enough to insist that 7' x 9' living room has a pair of Wilson MAXXs, WAF be damned. However, because of the UK's traditionally high weighting in all things audio, the domestic demands of the UK home have shaped a great deal of international audio trends in loudspeakers.

We (both the magazines and the industry entire) have to either relearn how to address the demands of this new generation of buyer (which, in fairness, some companies are already doing, and doing well) and hopefully present them with better alternatives once they discover there's more to this than just IEMs, or give up on the lost generations altogether and keep concentrating on existing customers.

It's an easy dismissal to suggest the first approach does not cater for enthusiasts. I'd argue that we are trying to nurture new enthusiasts. However, we are at an impasse here too; what attracts the potential new enthusiasts disenfranchises the existing enthusiasts, and vice versa. We could continue to make a magazine devoted to 12" tonearms, SET amps and even publish diagrams on how to build your own sand-filled baffle for a 15" Dual Concentric... but these things largely kill off new readers. Or we could concentrate on Class-T amps, headphones and USB DACs... and largely lose our existing readers. There must be a happy balance somewhere.




I could go on... The point I'm making, however, is that although there is still some good stuff made today, the majority of it to my ears falls way short of what is possible from the best vintage gear, especially when judiciously modified with modern components.

You have the luxury of being able to say that. I don't.



However, when you've heard the amazing (and indeed astonishing) results that are possible when you give, say, £5k, to a very talented and experienced audio designer, and tell him to build you a 'no compromise' amplifier, who operates a small, specialist, business from his home (such as some people on this forum), and where that £5k is then invested solely in his time and the best components money can buy (instead of in a 'fancy box' and numerous commercial overheads and the built-in 'prestige value' of a 'desirable badge', like when buying kit from a known 'hi-end' hi-fi manufacturer), you'll forgive me if I have little motivation in spending three times that amount (or more) to arrive at the same (or worse) result, simply to own one such 'desirable badge' ;)

This is seriously 'preaching to the choir' today. Whether for good or ill, we are in a market that equates design with performance and high prices mean good design. David Berning makes fantastic amps - I have one of only three pairs of his 12W monos at home at the moment and they are possibly the most 'alive' sounding amps I know of - but I also know that no matter how much we praise Berning amps, most people at that end of the market rush out and buy... Ayre MX-Rs, because they get most of the way there and look the business. And the more the UK and US move into their new role of being a comparatively small cog in the bigger audio wheel, the more product design wins the battle.

There is still a place for the Glenn Crofts and David Bernings and Graham Trickers of this world. But what we need are more Ayres and Devialets that deliver a good sound and look the part.




Yes, but much of that is simply to do with ignorance. In my experience, when you show such people what is possible with the best vintage gear (especially when suitably modified), it most certainly opens their eyes and ears!

You are right a lot comes down to ignorance. But the ignorance goes far deeper than you claim. A lot of the genuine ignorance is based upon disinformation from the willfully ignorant. The hi-fi enthusiast already largely holds a position on vintage equipment. They may agree or disagree with you and their reasons for doing so might be based on listening or prejudice, but they have already reached an opinion.

That's not the issue. The issue is a whole generation of people who fail to understand what you and I are on about on any level. If we don't address this, your next piece of vintage equipment will be ghoul-fi. My father-in-law saw two young family members empty the house of a deceased relative recently, and watched with horror as they tipped a pair of minty Spendor BC1s into a skip. When he went over to talk to them, he found it on top of a Linn LP12, Quad 44/405 a Meridian 200 series CD player and about 2000 LPs and CDs, all sitting in half an inch of rainwater. "What, this old junk... it's worthless!" the guy said. It is now.

That's what we fight against. Not that new is better than old or old is better than new, but that any of it is still considered relevant. We have to do these things like Vintage and Bestival and the rest to try and stop people from forgetting audio exists, or thinking it all a bunch of junk.




Sure, but on AoS we simply tell it as we hear it. It's not about clouding the waters; it's about providing a reality check and informing those who may not know any better that the 'latest & greatest' new thing in audio is not always automatically the best! :)

Marco.

Once again, you have that luxury. I don't. People either get retro or they seriously don't today. Running retro features in a magazine can be read entirely the wrong way by those we are trying to bring into the market. They already view hi-fi as an old-man hobby and describing older components as being even remotely relevant today sits uncomfortably with someone who thinks the Xbox 360 is 'ancient history'. A company's goal today is to bring new people to the party. If they decide they want to explore the joys of older equipment having been brought to the party, all to the good. Most of them won't come to the party at all if they think it's 'all about retro'.

My big worry with the whole retro movement is if there are no newcomers, that can lead to no 'new', and it begins to spiral in on itself. Eventually vintage hi-fi becomes something more like the 405-line TV movement; a tiny proportion of the population, completely out of step with the rest of the world.

[griffo104]

Yup, there's nothing wrong in that approach; indeed it is a very valid one. I would always offer advice based on the specific requirements of the individual, and what they want from a system, which is precisely what I do when faced with that situation on AoS. At the end of the day, it's all about having choices :cool:

Marco.

Absolutely, there is no right and wrong.

Get them interested first in the easiest way and then get them on to the forums and chatting to like minded people and let them see where's the best for them to go.

Knowledge is king but you need to get the interest and your own knowledge up first and then move onwards and upwards.

nothing better than going to a forum member's place and listening to their system or attending a bake off. Last year when a few came round to mine, one brought their Nagra CDP along. I loved it, everything about it from the build, ergonomics and sound quality. an £8k cdp going through my budget Denon :mental:. Talk about source first.

You only get the chance to do that through these places. try and explain that to dealer, see if you can home dem his £8k CDP through your budget amp and Im not so sure how many would actually like you to do it.

[Alan Sircom]

The biggest problem is getting them from nothing to something - after that's where the BIGGEST improvement is.

Once they get an appreciation of what a good hifi can bring from their music listening then they can choose and tailor their tastes.

I'm the opposite of your thinking, I think getting a really good budget system together can really show them what a little cost can bring. for that companies like Denon and Cambridge Audio are perfect as they make good, well built and very nice sounding components.

The performance from the budget Denon I own in my 2nd system amazes me when you take in to cost, performance and features. It proves that cost doesn't need to be the stumbling block in getting started.

I think throwing vintage, modified and serious high end at people can put them off. we all know the law of diminishing returns and nothing is like that first time you hear a proper hifi, even at the low end of the market.

Getting a simple, affordable system, well setup in the listening room will bring a load of pleasure and highlight how great music can be. From their they can use it to start their journey and go down the path they choose or just sit back and enjoy it.

I agree with this, but Classic Album Sundays is not the vehicle. If you are going to show the Best in British, it probably needs to be at least as good (and in simple terms, that means as expensive) as the system Cosmo plays on, which is her own NA Hyperspace, a Koetsu Red, McIntosh and Klipshorns. Pitching up in a 60' room with a Rega RP1 an Arcam and a pair of little Tannoys would send a tinny message about the state of the audio art.

Also, having tried more down-beat systems in demos to friends and family members, you quickly hit the 'meh!' factor. People are used to being blown away today; if the first encounter is merely good, it's received with apathy. If the first encounter is exceptional, it's met with 'wow'. After that, you can negotiate.

[Marco]

Excellent (earlier) post, Alan. We are largely in agreement! I'll deal with some of the more pertinent points later :)

However, I particularly liked this bit:


A lot of the genuine ignorance is based upon disinformation from the willfully ignorant.

:lolsign: Yup - how true is that! And oh how I hate those f*ckers (step forward Ashley James, of AVI, and his blinkered cronies) who have an unjustified mania against vintage gear, due to their biased commercial agendas!! :wanker:

Marco.

[griffo104]

I agree with this, but Classic Album Sundays is not the vehicle. If you are going to show the Best in British, it probably needs to be at least as good (and in simple terms, that means as expensive) as the system Cosmo plays on, which is her own NA Hyperspace, a Koetsu Red, McIntosh and Klipshorns. Pitching up in a 60' room with a Rega RP1 an Arcam and a pair of little Tannoys would send a tinny message about the state of the audio art.

Also, having tried more down-beat systems in demos to friends and family members, you quickly hit the 'meh!' factor. People are used to being blown away today; if the first encounter is merely good, it's received with apathy. If the first encounter is exceptional, it's met with 'wow'. After that, you can negotiate.

But it can go the other way. not being able to create that 'WOW' factor in your own listening environment can also lead to apathy and susbequently disappointment.

Of course the 2nd system you mentioned would be silly in a 60' room.

I'm in a fortunate position of having two systems as I spend time in two locations. In Southend I live in a flat converted from an old Victorian house so sound proofing is dreadful. Listening to my active Linn system simply isn't an option so I had to rethink how I listen to music and come up with something smaller but still having the strengths I enjoy from my hifi - and I managed to put that together for around £1500.

while Marco mentions his dislike of modern speakers for WAF, it's thanks to this WAF that I can get a pair of Totem Dreamcatchers. No silly bass to annoy the neighbours and they give me the compromise I need to enjoy my music.

It's a serious compromise but it makes full use of modern thinking. I love my Magnum Dynalab tuner (in the Linn system) but I've got a Freeview PVR so why not use the recording facilities of this for the radio ? It means I can record stuff on R3 that's on late and listen the next morning. Does it sound as good as the MD ? Of course not but it does a very good job and the convenience allows me to enjoy free to air music in my own time.

There are so many ways to improve how we listen to music now and it really can be done quite affordably.

Last night I enjoyed listening to Cecilia Bartoli in SACD on my DVD player, the same DVD player I can enjoy watching my films on.

there will always be a 'meh' factor in the demo. It s a risk you take from trying to blow people away, or there's a more calculated way at bringing it to a more realistic level.

Many years ago I had the pleasure of listening to a Rockport sirius through Spectral amps (can't remember the speakers) I was rooted to the spot in awe of what I was listening to. Now the Rockport was silly money but even an ignorant person such as myself could understand and see the engineering that had gone into. that sound was sublime on the day but I also realise I'll never have the room or the money to experience that at home.

nothing worse than going for a drive in an Aston Martin but then having to return to your Nissen Almera for the journey home.

[Alan Sircom]

nothing worse than going for a drive in an Aston Martin but then having to return to your Nissen Almera for the journey home.

I agree, but they aren't driving home in a Nissan. Having no hi-fi in the home to speak of, they are walking home. By the time they get home, the idea of a Nissan Almera sounds really rather good.

It's also worth noting no one says "I went to the motor show and got to sit in the new Nissan Almera. Woo!" Even if that's the car they end up driving for the next decade.

We need to put back a little of the magic in audio to the uninitiated, as well as showing them what they can do without spending a fortune. At the moment, we are failing on both counts. That is in part what the magazines are there for.

[MartinT]

Another more recent issue is the 'box ticker' mentality. Until recently, CD and CD/SACD players were relatively immune to this, because they were considered an anachronism. However, many fall foul of the 'does it play Blu-ray?' tick-box question. Online, this represents the difference between 'sale' and 'no sale' for many products. Once you go down that multi-standard route, the manufacturer either has to take someone else's player as a base for their own model (and suffer the opprobrium of having that fact 'outed') or pay a quarter of a million dollars in initial manufacturing license fees before you can start the R&D process, and approximately $50k per year in 'top ups'. This works if you can sell BR players by the thousand, not if you make 10 a week.

This is interesting. Imagining a continuum between the 'A' and 'V' in AV, at what point does a small manufacturer give up on R&D and certification costs and buy in the technology required, either attempting to hide it as in the Oppo rebadged as a Lexicon, or upgrading it in the PSU and audio areas as with the latest Ayre products? Do we need the 'V' at all? Can the hi-fi market survive better by not attempting to make universal systems which include all manner of video electronics that have no place in a quality audio system?

If Richer Sounds represents the full swing towards the 'V' with anything they sell being of the 5.1 variety, how can hi-fi be sufficiently differentiated so that it stands alone and has a chance to survive as a proper market segment of its own? Perhaps a re-branding from hi-fi to audio may be a good starting point. That might mean a few magazines should change their titles but now might be a good time to to try to stand apart from the segment that thinks hi-fi = surround sound as an adjunct to video.

[lurcher]

because it affronts the sensibilities of the slashdot set who have a habit of crashing sites with DoS attacks if they feel the company breaks their rules.

While I agree with what you have said in general, I do have to take exception to this. I don't know of any case where slashdot has been involved in a DOS. Having a link on slashdot will cause a huge spike in traffic, and if your web site is badly designed and maintained (and is run on a £10 a year virtual host) that increase in traffic may cause problems, but that's the sites fault, not the traffic and not slashdot.

[DSJR]

Why don't some of you go and listen to some of the cheaper pro active speakers out there? I think some of the better ones under a grand or so may give established separates a good run for their money. Couple these with a modern laptop or i-pod dock full of music files and I bet the sound wouldn't be as "bad" as many here would think. If getting somesuch similar means that youngsters can get a half decent sound for not much dosh, some of them may just look around to see what else is available?


I don't live near a Richer Sounds branch, but for some years, these seemed to be thriving. Again, are some of their cheaper simple two-way speakers really that horrendous? An inexpensive Cambridge CD and amp, or NAD or similar surely wouldn't sound awful, would it? (Didn't used to back in my day) Just think what the average starter system of 1970 or so used to be - Garrard SP25, Metrosound or Teleton amp (before Amstrad took the limelight) and Denton/Maxim-style speakers. In those days, I don't remember systems like this costing the earth (maybe someone could equate the 1970 cost to today), yet they gave much pleasure and so many of us 50+'s started out this way (and in my case regressed - ahem - :lol:).

Just a thought, as much "aspirational gear" isn't often hugely better, just far better clothed and costing shed-loads more to give it cachet...

[griffo104]

This is interesting. Imagining a continuum between the 'A' and 'V' in AV, at what point does a small manufacturer give up on R&D and certification costs and buy in the technology required, either attempting to hide it as in the Oppo rebadged as a Lexicon, or upgrading it in the PSU and audio areas as with the latest Ayre products? Do we need the 'V' at all? Can the hi-fi market survive better by not attempting to make universal systems which include all manner of video electronics that have no place in a quality audio system?

If Richer Sounds represents the full swing towards the 'V' with anything they sell being of the 5.1 variety, how can hi-fi be sufficiently differentiated so that it stands alone and has a chance to survive as a proper market segment of its own? Perhaps a re-branding from hi-fi to audio may be a good starting point. That might mean a few magazines should change their titles but now might be a good time to to try to stand apart from the segment that thinks hi-fi = surround sound as an adjunct to video.

Wasn't this a problem Linn had with it's Unidisk system ? Tried to go it alone and ended up having an all in one system that cost £6.5k. At the time I bought a Denon DVD2900 for £400 when they were retailing at £850. I've still got it and it's a terrific piece of equipment but how does a company like Linn expect to compete with a company the size of Denon ? Especially if they decide to go alone ?

Nothing annoys me more about modern hifi when I see a good budget mulitplayer such as the Pioneer at about £250 being turned in £4k high end boxes with very little internally done to them.

Another problem we currently have in hifi is the me-too mentality. this seems especially prevalent in speakers at the moment as more companies seem to want be at that £100k figure to prove they are the best, a bit like German car manufactuers trying to outdo each other in bhp stakes. It muddies the waters from actual quality of design and engineering. I know things are priced to sell and if someone pays for it then good for them but in the case of the reboxing of players such as the Oppo/Lexicon then it needs to be more transparent for what you paying the extra for.

[Alan Sircom]

While I agree with what you have said in general, I do have to take exception to this. I don't know of any case where slashdot has been involved in a DOS. Having a link on slashdot will cause a huge spike in traffic, and if your web site is badly designed and maintained (and is run on a £10 a year virtual host) that increase in traffic may cause problems, but that's the sites fault, not the traffic and not slashdot.

I wasn't referring to slashdot specifically, but what happens when a story does the rounds on gearhead forums. It appears on slashdot, then arstechnica, then the cnet forums and so on. Pretty soon you have half of NerdWorld on your back. And things can and do get ugly.

[Marco]

Just a thought, as much "aspirational gear" isn't often hugely better, just far better clothed and costing shed-loads more to give it cachet...

Indeed, and your point about "cachet" is something I will be addressing later.

The sort of gear you're referring to, represented in no small amount by the product portfolio of Absolute Sounds, IMO, have done just as much harm to the current state of the industry as anything else that has been discussed here so far!

If the final RRP of most of the 'hi-fi jewellery' Alan reviews in his magazine (sorry, but that's how I feel about much of it) was reflected mostly in what was 'under the hood', than on making stuff look 'blingy', or the costs of marketing campaigns to pitch it as being "aspirational" to the gullible snob-value obsessed 'key jangler fraternity', then enthusiasts, such as me, with a healthy disposable income, might view such gear with less suspicion and be more likely to buy it, than going down the difficult and potentially more problematic route of modifying the best vintage gear, in order to ensure that what we have is more than just a pretty box.....! ;)

At the end of the day, what I *mostly* want to be paying for with the equipment I buy is out-and-out sonic performance, not gadgetry or elitist bullshit which has little to do with that... "Cachet", in reference to audio equipment, therefore, is of ZERO interest to me, because for me, audio equipment is simply a functional tool with which to reproduce one's favourite music to the highest sonic standard: a means to an end - nothing more! And certainly not an ornament to be admired or coveted.

If it also looks nice, that's a bonus!!

I often wonder how many people who buy six-figure audio components are genuine music lovers, as opposed to merely collectors of expensive toys...

Marco.

[Alan Sircom]

This is interesting. Imagining a continuum between the 'A' and 'V' in AV, at what point does a small manufacturer give up on R&D and certification costs and buy in the technology required, either attempting to hide it as in the Oppo rebadged as a Lexicon, or upgrading it in the PSU and audio areas as with the latest Ayre products? Do we need the 'V' at all? Can the hi-fi market survive better by not attempting to make universal systems which include all manner of video electronics that have no place in a quality audio system?

If Richer Sounds represents the full swing towards the 'V' with anything they sell being of the 5.1 variety, how can hi-fi be sufficiently differentiated so that it stands alone and has a chance to survive as a proper market segment of its own? Perhaps a re-branding from hi-fi to audio may be a good starting point. That might mean a few magazines should change their titles but now might be a good time to to try to stand apart from the segment that thinks hi-fi = surround sound as an adjunct to video.


There is no easy answer. In the states the 'joke' is "What do you call a hi-fi store that meets a home theater store? A home theater store." If you want to sell a multi-format player today, you will struggle to sell it unless it supports Blu-ray, even though those who use it may only use CD and SACD. And a Blu-ray with no video capacity is still a Blu-ray player to the licensing companies. Part of the reason the DX-5 exists (aside from allowing a platform for its QB-9 DAC that still has an optical drive) is because sales of C-5xe fell away to practically nothing. That supports CD/SACD/DVD-A/DVD-V (no video) but not Blu-ray and that last statement virtually killed it off. AFAIK, a lot of the engineering that goes into the DX-5 is trying to keep the video side from undermining the audio.

So no, I don't think dropping the 'V' would help, even in products that don't use the 'V' under any significant circumstances. Even CD and CD/SACD players suffer the 'is that all?' dismissal from those wanting all the boxes ticked today. This is a function of people buying online on spec than in store on demonstration, I suspect.

Hi-fi is an odd term that only has any importance in Europe. It's 'audio' and 'multi-channel audio' everywhere else

[griffo104]

Indeed, and your point about "cachet" is something I will be addressing later.

The sort of gear you're referring to, represented in no small amount by the product portfolio of Absolute Sounds, IMO, have done just as much harm to the current state of the industry as anything else that has been discussed here so far!

If the final RRP of most of the 'hi-fi jewellery' Alan reviews in his magazine (sorry, but that's how I feel about much of it) was reflected mostly in what was 'under the hood', than on making stuff look 'blingy', or the costs of marketing campaigns to make such kit appear as "aspirational" to the snob-value obsessed 'key jangler fraternity', then enthusiasts, such as me, with a healthy disposable income, might view such gear with less suspicion and be more likely to buy it, than going down the difficult and potentially more problematic route of modifying the best vintage gear! ;)

At the end of the day, what I *mostly* want to be paying for with the equipment I buy is out-and-out sonic performance, not elitist bullshit which has little to do with that...

Marco.

But then that distributor is responsible for bring in companies like Magico and Dartzeel in to the UK - two of the finest brands I've had the pleasure of listening to. Just reading about the research and build that goes in to the Dartzeel amps shows where some of the money goes to.

I'm sure pricing takes in to account import, tax and other bits and bobs and, yes, these are way out of my reach finacially but they sound sublime and are built to last.

I know others on other forums have disgreed with me but hearing the Kuzma/Karan/Avalon combos at shows has always made me enjoy them, if only that distributor would allow you to put some noisier music on.

these are guys designing and building no-compromise kit all with one thing in common - to reproduce music as best as THEY know how.

I, personnaly don't have a problem with these brands - ok it's moot point as I'll never own any of it but some of this gear would be in my aspirational system, bit sad that it does lack a bit Britishness.

I resent brands simply reboxing someone else's research and then charging stupid money for it. Now that IS audio jewellery of the worst kind.

[Marco]

I resent brands simply reboxing someone else's research and then charging stupid money for it. Now that IS audio jewellery of the worst kind.


Totally agreed - that shit should be illegal! :wanker:

However, we'll have to agree to disagree on Magico and DarTZeel, as I've also heard it during many demonstrations at shows by AS (along with that ridiculous £40k French CDP they use), and have sat there shaking my head in disbelief at how a system which costs more than many peoples homes, could produce such a diabolically mediocre sound (compared to my own reference benchmark)!

Marco.

[Alan Sircom]

I often wonder how many people who buy six-figure audio components are genuine music lovers, as opposed to merely collectors of expensive toys...


Of the people I know who own this grade of equipment, two of them run record labels (not audiophile record labels, the kind of ones Led Zep and Mike Oldfield were signed to), four run studios in the States and two more are big name recording engineers. Not one of them has less than about 50,000 records and all of them are total music geeks. Of the 'civilians' I know who use this level of equipment, one must have more than 100,000 albums stretched across the walls of four rooms of his house, one has about 20,000 records (but he is obsessed by 1960s R'n'B and that represents basically all of his record collection), one uses a server and claims he has 10TB stored uncompressed (a lot of classical) and one has 300 CDs that he plays in strict rotation one album per day (no one said expensive audio doesn't come with the odd eccentric). Yes, I also know someone who has a pair of extremely expensive loudspeakers, with an equally extremely expensive vintage Gibson Les Paul in front of them and he plays neither, but I'd consider that the exception rather than the rule.

Ultimately though, what does that matter? People buy cars they cannot drive at anything approaching their performance potential on the road. I know people who have glass cases full of classic Leicas and Contaxes that they will never put a roll of film through any more, but enjoy them for their design. I even worked for a guy who had a garage full of vintage Rolls Royces, but couldn't drive. I'm sure you have a small collection of audio equipment that you love to have but never use, too.

Argumentum ad lazarum is just as much of a formal fallacy as argumentum ad crumenam. If someone enjoys their music, so be it. If they enjoy it on equipment you find unutterably incorrect, what makes you right and them wrong?

[MartinT]

sales of C-5xe fell away to practically nothing. That supports CD/SACD/DVD-A/DVD-V (no video) but not Blu-ray and that last statement virtually killed it off.

I know - I have one! In my case, though, it does exactly what I wanted and introduces no video circuitry into the main system. Stereophile reviewed the QB9 and found it to sound good, but not as good as the C-5xe. Why am I not surprised?

[MartinT]

Just reading about the research and build that goes in to the Dartzeel amps shows where some of the money goes to.

I like the 'Pleasure' control :)

[lurcher]

I wasn't referring to slashdot specifically, but what happens when a story does the rounds on gearhead forums. It appears on slashdot, then arstechnica, then the cnet forums and so on. Pretty soon you have half of NerdWorld on your back. And things can and do get ugly.


Shame. I did buy + now and then, the above will mean I dont any more. Ironic that a HiFi mag editor would use the above phrases in what I can only see in a pejorative sense.

[Alan Sircom]

Shame. I did buy + now and then, the above will mean I dont any more. Ironic that a HiFi mag editor would use the above phrases in what I can only see in a pejorative sense.

Sorry you feel that way. I got to feel my way after I got a full inbox of emails telling me I should be killed for allowing Malcolm Steward oxygen, and my publisher getting the same asking for me to be sacked for the same reason. My reaction to it was originally to publish Hi-Fi+ - the Malcolm Edition and headline it 'bring it on!' and publish all the mail. I don't consider 'gearhead' to be pejorative though. This is a gearhead forum, after all.

[lurcher]

Sorry you feel that way. I got to feel my way after I got a full inbox of emails telling me I should be killed for allowing Malcolm Steward oxygen, and my publisher getting the same asking for me to be sacked for the same reason. My reaction to it was originally to publish Hi-Fi+ - the Malcolm Edition and headline it 'bring it on!' and publish all the mail. I don't consider 'gearhead' to be pejorative though. This is a gearhead forum, after all.

Indeed, I could have been sympathetic about such a reaction but I doubt there would be many slashdot users who even know (let alone care) about past + editors. You started talking about a DOS + slashdot, then moved to pointing the finger at a bunch of other forums (while claming to not be referring to slashdot specifically, despite having done exactly that), then moved to the problem actually being a flood of abusive emails. But hey, dont let me stop you blaming anyone you feel like. Simple solution, stop reading emails.

[griffo104]

Shame. I did buy + now and then, the above will mean I dont any more. Ironic that a HiFi mag editor would use the above phrases in what I can only see in a pejorative sense.

I don't see the harm in the phrases used - I regard myself as a gearhead, and if I still had the long hair would love be a metalhead again :guitar:.

As for Nerdworld - we are communicating via a very nerdy thing tbh, and after 22 years in IT I have to be called a nerd - I think it's the law.

[Alan Sircom]

Indeed, I could have been sympathetic about such a reaction but I doubt there would be many slashdot users who even know (let alone care) about past + editors. You started talking about a DOS + slashdot, then moved to pointing the finger at a bunch of other forums (while claming to not be referring to slashdot specifically, despite having done exactly that), then moved to the problem actually being a flood of abusive emails. But hey, dont let me stop you blaming anyone you feel like. Simple solution, stop reading emails.

OK, let me explain.

This came as a result of one of my reviewers - Malcolm Steward - posting an article on his blog about SuperSATA cables, which got picked up by a number of sites (including, but not exclusively, Slashdot). His site was hit by a DOS attack and his ISP took the site down temporarily. When they couldn't target Malcolm directly, there must have been some searching for his name on other sites. Ours was targeted, we also got a DOS attack, and my publisher, the owner and I all received a flood of abusive emails, asking for his - and my - head on a plate. Sometimes literally. When our site recovered, it was hacked. For the record, this all took place inside of about 18 hours.

All because I printed a review about a headphone amp from someone who suggested on an unrelated blog that he could hear a difference between a SATA and SuperSATA cable in a NAS drive. Forgive me for being oversensitive, but I find that something of a witchhunt.

Now, what I originally said was 'affront to the sensibilities of the slashdot set'. If you read my writing often enough, you'll know I like alliteration. I could have just easily said 'counter to the court of CNET' or 'angers the adepts at arstechnica'. As such, no this was not aimed directly at slashdot, but generally at an 'burn the heretic' attitude that is pervasive.

[WAD62]

All because I printed a review about a headphone amp from someone who suggested on an unrelated blog that he could hear a difference between a SATA and SuperSATA cable in a NAS drive. Forgive me for being oversensitive, but I find that something of a witchhunt.


Very amusing indeed...:lol:

Can he/she also tell the difference between different file transfer protocols ;)

[Alan Sircom]

Very amusing indeed...:lol:

Can he/she also tell the difference between different file transfer protocols ;)

I don't know or care what he did or did not hear. Just the reaction to what he claimed was out of all proportion.

He made a claim that was controversial, he didn't stir-fry a child.

[lurcher]

This came as a result of one of my reviewers - Malcolm Steward - posting an article on his blog about SuperSATA cables, which got picked up by a number of sites (including, but not exclusively, Slashdot). His site was hit by a DOS attack and his ISP took the site down temporarily. When they couldn't target Malcolm directly, there must have been some searching for his name on other sites. Ours was targeted, we also got a DOS attack, and my publisher, the owner and I all received a flood of abusive emails, asking for his - and my - head on a plate. Sometimes literally. When our site recovered, it was hacked. For the record, this all took place inside of about 18 hours.

Yep, and I said that what you call a DOS was most likely just the result of there being a link on slashdot to your site. And I suggested that the solution to that (and the fact that it was "hacked" whatever that means) was to ensure the site was competently managed with up to date software, and was on a server and host network that could handle the increased traffic.

[WAD62]

I don't know or care what he did or did not hear. Just the reaction to what he claimed was out of all proportion.

He made a claim that was controversial, he didn't stir-fry a child.

...ah! Ok I missed your point completely :doh:

[Welder]

Wasn’t the outrage more to do with suspicions that Malcolm Steward may have had a vested interest in promoting this product?

[MartinT]

Yep, and I said that what you call a DOS was most likely just the result of there being a link on slashdot to your site. And I suggested that the solution to that (and the fact that it was "hacked" whatever that means) was to ensure the site was competently managed with up to date software, and was on a server and host network that could handle the increased traffic.

Alan said that his ISP was involved and they would know what a Denial of Service looks like, so it is very likely that it was a DOS and not just heavy traffic.

Can we draw a close to this argument please, as it's clear that you both have different opinions and you are likely to get bogged down with increasingly accusatory language?

[griffo104]

I don't know or care what he did or did not hear. Just the reaction to what he claimed was out of all proportion.

He made a claim that was controversial, he didn't stir-fry a child.

sadly that's what happens on the world wide web. I well remember this incident and commented on another hifi forum regarding his comments.

If you are going to blog something like this, with the HUGE number of IT and techies on the web then you open yourself up to being criticised. This, imo, is justified to a degree. If you want to be controversial than all very good.

However, the reactions you mention are also completely stupid and simply not justified but it's a problem with how the web works. It's simply to easy to do it.

Almost bad as a comment about music on hard drives sounding better after a defrag, that was posted on another hifi forum by someone I have the very utmost respect for. Just makes you wonder.

[Alan Sircom]

Yep, and I said that what you call a DOS was most likely just the result of there being a link on slashdot to your site. And I suggested that the solution to that (and the fact that it was "hacked" whatever that means) was to ensure the site was competently managed with up to date software, and was on a server and host network that could handle the increased traffic.

There was no link to the site on slashdot (or other forums, in fairness). It's possible it was a lone gunman, or that the server and host network couldn't scale, or that the site is not well managed.

That's getting away from the point. The result of those 18 hours of 'action' is that we are reluctant to publish anything 'controversial' about computer audio on our site, in case of repeat performances. So the idea of swapping out a SMPS for a lab linear PSU to drive a server is currently off limits.

Computer audio is not a done deal for audiophiles, although it's over and done with elsewhere. We are still in the exploring stages. Some of the things we may explore will prove dead-ends, some will prove fruitful, but unless these explorations are given a chance to develop, we may be left with mediocre. This 'action' I mentioned has dimmed slightly the options for exploration.

[lurcher]

Alan said that his ISP was involved and they would know what a Denial of Service looks like, so it is very likely that it was a DOS and not just heavy traffic.

Can we draw a close to this argument please, as it's clear that you both have different opinions and you are likely to get bogged down with increasingly accusatory language?

In my experence, most ISP's couldn't find their backside with both hands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashdot_effect

Ok. Ended.

[Alan Sircom]

Wasn’t the outrage more to do with suspicions that Malcolm Steward may have had a vested interest in promoting this product?

What product? An unnamed SuperSATA cable inside a home-made NAS box? Not exactly sell-out city is it?

Sorry. Didn't see call to end this. It's over.

[MartinT]

Thanks, Guys.

[MartinT]

That's getting away from the point. The result of those 18 hours of 'action' is that we are reluctant to publish anything 'controversial' about computer audio on our site, in case of repeat performances. So the idea of swapping out a SMPS for a lab linear PSU to drive a server is currently off limits.

It's quite shocking to read that your own sense of impartiality, not to mention good journalism, is at risk evey time you get an onslaught because of something you may or may not have written. Is there nothing you can do to regain the moral high ground?

[Alan Sircom]

It's quite shocking to read that your own sense of impartiality, not to mention good journalism, is at risk evey time you get an onslaught because of something you may or may not have written. Is there nothing you can do to regain the moral high ground?

Yes. We can wait for the dust to settle and start again. This is the usual reaction, because it's easier than trying to challenge this sort of thing head on. These things tend to be relatively rare, and centred specifically on the anything hardware before the DAC (custom PC architecture, discussions about internal RF interference, use of linear PSUs, etc, etc). Most times, such discussions pass unnoticed because audio really is a very small pond, but if we've been flagged over someone saying something 'outspoken' it all happens once again.

[Welder]

:sofa:

[Alex_UK]

'ere ya go John.

http://www.lobelsfoods.com/custard.gif

:)

[Welder]

Cheers Alex :(

(feckin custard creams again)
Wot happened to them Fortnum and Masons shortbread cookies you get now you’ve been made up an all…..?


Not that I’m ungrateful or anything :lolsign:

[MartinT]

now you’ve been made up an all

:lol:

[Marco]

Yesh, but he's not had the 'initiation ceremony' yet, and his ass is mine! :goodfriends:

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Tim]

Yesh, but he's not had the 'initiation ceremony' yet, and his ass is mine! :goodfriends:

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Marco.
Marco, you're a feckin' nutter :lol:

[David Price]

Just come to this thread after a few days away.

Alan I just wanted to say I think you did a fine thing at the weekend, and I applaud your proactive nature on taking great music to new people.

We need far more 'live' events - and the mags need to get behind them. But as Alan says, this could be counterproductive as it would fill them full of people who own 20 different remasters of 'Dark Side of the Moon', some of which have been cryogenically frozen. It's hard to find the balance; maybe the lifestyle press could get behind them, with a quiet guiding hand from the hi-fi press/forums/dealers?

[Marco]

Hi David,

It's unfair to discuss Richard at the moment, as has no right of reply until his week's ban expires on 9/8/11. Therefore, I'd appreciate it if you removed any reference to him - cheers! :cool:

As an aside, have you done anything new recently with your Techy? You really must hear mine sometime, as it's sounding mighty fine now! :gig:

Marco.

[Alan Sircom]

Just come to this thread after a few days away.

Alan I just wanted to say I think you did a fine thing at the weekend, and I applaud your proactive nature on taking great music to new people.

We need far more 'live' events - and the mags need to get behind them. But as Alan says, this could be counterproductive as it would fill them full of people who own 20 different remasters of 'Dark Side of the Moon', some of which have been cryogenically frozen. It's hard to find the balance; maybe the lifestyle press could get behind them, with a quiet guiding hand from the hi-fi press/forums/dealers?

Thanks!

It is hard to get the balance right, both with the Classic Albums list and the format and equipment on which the albums are played. Cosmo currently goes for vinyl and vinyl only and judging by the responses to individual albums (the people seem to applaud and cheer louder at the end when it's played on LP) I think that's a good move, at least in the early stages.

The choice of albums is extremely simple. It's a purely democratic process. People put their wish-list onto a chalkboard, the wish-list goes to a vote on the website and the winner will get played the month following. That gives the host time to bone up on the album and maybe get hold of a really good copy, if they haven't already. Yes, you might end up with über-nerdy discussions about how the 1978 Thai test pressing was slightly better than the 2001 Japanese half-speed master pressed on massaged vinyl and lots of requests for DSOTM and Rumours, but that's democracy for you!

The big question is how good do you go with the equipment. People pay £5 to sit and listen to the album in silent reverie, with the host DJ contextualising the album at low volume before and after, then listen to five minutes or so of gentle geeky musicology about the specific album before listening to the album itself. The question is how important is the system that album is played on? CAS sets its store by calling the events 'a communal and audiophile experience' and the quality of the sound systems have lived up to that (NA/Koetsu/McIntosh or MF/Klipshorn at the Hanbury sessions, Continuum/Koetsu/ARC/DarTZeel/Wilson for the Syd Barrett event and Rega/dCS/Naim/ISOL-8/Chord/Quadraspire/Bowers & Wilkins this weekend). I'm not so sure people would be so willing to spank down their fivers if it were played on a Dual/NAD/Wharfedale Diamond system from the 1980s, no matter how well cared for it was.

There is also probably some mild anti-Technics vibe going on here, purely because the deck is the mainstay of the DJ scene, and the DJs want to distance Classic Album Sundays from that scene. I guess it would be like if you drive a van all week, the last thing you want to do on the weekend is drive around in a van.

It's ultimately meant as a showcase for the music, rather than for the equipment, even though this last event was a bit of both (and some flying the flag at the same time). But I think the showcase part needs good equipment to do just that. I just wonder as the format naturally expands, where it will end up?

[David Price]

I've removed the reference - maybe Alan can too?

I didn't know he was 'banned' - just skimmed through about 8 pages and missed that.

Apologies to the good Dr., too...

[Marco]

Thanks, David!

So how's that Techy of yours doing, or is it way down the pecking order these days? :)

Marco.

[Alan Sircom]

I've removed the reference - maybe Alan can too?

I didn't know he was 'banned' - just skimmed through about 8 pages and missed that.

Apologies to the good Dr., too...

Already removed!

[David Price]

Hi Alan - yes I do think you need a good system, and it sounds like you've got some pretty serious firepower, and a good synergistic mix. If it's too low end it's not going to be much of an event, but if it's £100k then you're just as likely to put people off. So maybe something around the fifty grand mark, like Marco's system! ;-)

Another possibility is using classic systems - maybe a Garrard 401, Croft Pre (cheating a bit, not so old!), Leak Stereo 20 and stacked Quad 57s playing sixties music, a Technics SP10/II, Pioneer SPEC 1/2 and Wharfedale E90s playing seventies stuff, an LP12, Naim NAC32.5-250 and Isobariks doing eighties, etc.

Sorry - that last one would doubtless annoy absent friends!

[David Price]

Hi Marco - my SL1200 is tragically on the back burner, right now, in bits. Totally armless. I'll have to get it back on the road but right now I'm having a dalliance with a Sony PS8750 (£250 from Kent audiojumble) which has got me in a spin. My Marantz TT-1000 and Sony TT-S8000 and Michell Orbe and SL1200 are all sitting there, not plugged in!

[Alan Sircom]

Hi Alan - yes I do think you need a good system, and it sounds like you've got some pretty serious firepower, and a good synergistic mix. If it's too low end it's not going to be much of an event, but if it's £100k then you're just as likely to put people off. So maybe something around the fifty grand mark, like Marco's system! ;-)

Another possibility is using classic systems - maybe a Garrard 401, Croft Pre (cheating a bit, not so old!), Leak Stereo 20 and stacked Quad 57s playing sixties music, a Technics SP10/II, Pioneer SPEC 1/2 and Wharfedale E90s playing seventies stuff, an LP12, Naim NAC32.5-250 and Isobariks doing eighties, etc.

Sorry - that last one would doubtless annoy absent friends!

I think the problem with some of the more sensitive equipment is it needs to be mobile. The equipment is moved from home to pub to home again, like DJ gear, but with a bit more care and attention. And installed relatively quickly. That eliminates Quads and 'briks, because they take an age to bed in. And the whole health and safety thing of playing to real people puts paid to anything with exposed valves, so Stereo 20s and Quad IIs would be out of the question.

[Marco]

Hi Marco - my SL1200 is tragically on the back burner, right now, in bits. Totally armless. I'll have to get it back on the road but right now I'm having a dalliance with a Sony PS8750 (£250 from Kent audiojumble) which has got me in a spin. My Marantz TT-1000 and Sony TT-S8000 and Michell Orbe and SL1200 are all sitting there, not plugged in!

I thought that might be the case with your Techy... You really need to hear one with a Paul Hynes SR5 or SR7 PSU and a Mike New bearing and platter. Trust me, those items launch the SL-1200 into an entirely new sonic league! ;)

The Sony PS8750 sounds intriguing, so tell me more. What are its sonic traits, or perhaps in what way does it differ from the way a modded SL-1200 presents music? :cool:

Marco.

[SCIDB]

Hi,

For a bit more info on what Classic Album Sunday is all about.

PlWbX5zHaAo

Colleen's Sunday events (some hifi action including Koetsu, MF & Klipschorn)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-12212335


Also another piece on Colleen (Also features her hifi system include some Klipschorns, Nottingham Analogue, Koetsu & Mark Levinson)

g_w_Ju4hZik&feature=related

Here is the Greg Wilson idea for active listening to music.

http://www.gregwilson.co.uk/2010/06/living-to-music/

[Barry]

Hi,

For a bit more info on what Classic Album Sunday is all about.

PlWbX5zHaAo

Colleen's Sunday events (some hifi action including Koetsu, MF & Klipschorn)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-12212335


Also another piece on Colleen (Also features her hifi system include some Klipschorns, Nottingham Analogue, Koetsu & Mark Levinson)

g_w_Ju4hZik&feature=related

Here is the Greg Wilson idea for active listening to music.

http://www.gregwilson.co.uk/2010/06/living-to-music/

A 5.0 system - yeuch! I was with her: Levinson ML-1 (and even the Klipshorns), but the use of rear/side speakers with "delay"? :eek:

Hmmm, I remain to be convinced.

[Welder]

Ref
http://www.gregwilson.co.uk/2010/06/living-to-music/
and similar views often hinted at if not explicitly stated here.

Just no, no, NO!

You’re pushing it when you tell people what kit they need to fully appreciate music.
You’re bang out of order telling them what they should be listening to.
It’s just plain taking the piss telling them how they should listen.

What is it with some people ffs. There is no sacred flame of the real audio experience that needs nurturing and guarding from the great unwashed.
It’s like the dope smoking culture in the West.
“Oh yeah man what you gotta do is skin up until you're nailed to the floor and just sit there soaking up the vibes man”.
What a load of bollocks really.

In countries where dope smoking is erm, indigenous, for want of a better description, the young have a smoke and then go and do stuff, sport, dancing, whatever.

No wonder we’re having problems selling Hi Fi to the young.

Are you going to sit there and just listen when the beat hits the floor?
Oh sry, I fergit, music isn’t for dancing to :doh:
Search as I might I can’t find anything in the Ten Commandments that says “thou shalt only listen to music in a seated position and concentrate fully in a meditative state.”

I must have it all wrong when I casually play a few tunes as I solder away nodding along, not really concentrating but enjoying the music none the less.

The arrogance is nothing short of astounding.

[David Price]

When I was younger and going through my fifteen year old's 'serious phase' I used to listen to my prog rock albums lying on the floor in the dark with the lights out. I found it surprisingly profound back then, actually. So maybe there's something in this - the right rake of recline (bit of alliteration there for Alan) will transform your sound! ;-)

[Alan Sircom]

Ref
http://www.gregwilson.co.uk/2010/06/living-to-music/
and similar views often hinted at if not explicitly stated here.

Just no, no, NO!

You’re pushing it when you tell people what kit they need to fully appreciate music.
You’re bang out of order telling them what they should be listening to.
It’s just plain taking the piss telling them how they should listen.

What is it with some people ffs. There is no sacred flame of the real audio experience that needs nurturing and guarding from the great unwashed.
It’s like the dope smoking culture in the West.
“Oh yeah man what you gotta do is skin up until you're nailed to the floor and just sit there soaking up the vibes man”.
What a load of bollocks really.

In countries where dope smoking is erm, indigenous, for want of a better description, the young have a smoke and then go and do stuff, sport, dancing, whatever.

No wonder we’re having problems selling Hi Fi to the young.

Are you going to sit there and just listen when the beat hits the floor?
Oh sry, I fergit, music isn’t for dancing to :doh:
Search as I might I can’t find anything in the Ten Commandments that says “thou shalt only listen to music in a seated position and concentrate fully in a meditative state.”

I must have it all wrong when I casually play a few tunes as I solder away nodding along, not really concentrating but enjoying the music none the less.

The arrogance is nothing short of astounding.

No, it's really not arrogance. The guy's a DJ. He spends his time in clubs. He's noticed when a 'name' DJ does a set, people no longer dance; they turn and face the DJ and record the experience, rather than engage in the experience.

I think a DJ would rather people dance than have a floor full of human camera stands.

I've sat next to people in concerts who spend virtually the whole concert on their iPhones tweeting that they are at a concert. Is Bartók really enhanced by knowing that Sam Likes This, but that Helen has never heard of Bartók? Are these statements really so ultimately pressing that people have to interrupt their listening and spend the next five minutes scanning Wikipedia to add some edited highlights about Bartók to their Facebook wall to make them look important? Perhaps instead of telling people they were listening to Bartók they actually listened to Bartók, they might have noticed they had been listening to Janácek (and no, I can't find the little tilda above the 'c' on the keyboard) for the last five minutes. If someone fails to notice the audience around them applauding because they were too engrossed in what was happening on their iPhone screen, I'd put them in the 'disengaged with the music' camp.

Friends of mine who still gig regularly find this particularly distressing. It's like being told every few seconds that your artwork is unimportant compared to knowing that Angela is buying noodles or that Gary's cat just farted.

There is nothing wrong with listening to music passively while doing something else. But does that have to extend to every single time you listen to music? Is music really so unimportant that it demands no processing cycles at all? Can you really 'get' Beethoven's Ode To Joy or Lady Gaga's Poker Face or any piece of music while simultaneously ironing a shirt, phoning a friend and watching Jeremy Kyle with the sound turned down? I think sometimes, the music is important enough and important enough to the individual at that time that it demands a bit more attention.

If we are collectively losing the art of active listening to music, what is so bad about a few people trying to preserve it?

[Welder]

Yep, I know about the terminally distracted concert attendee.

I’ve yet to see an entire dance floor grind to a halt to record a mainly acoustic event on a moble phone, but yep, people do it, and yep, it can be irritating.

It doesn’t mean the DJ or band have to throw a hissy fit over it though and tbh it doesn’t bother me if that’s what people want to do. It doesn’t stop you dancing or enjoying the music as long as you don’t have a "nanny knows best" attitude.

Obviously the type of music and the environment it’s played in has a bearing ;)

Nor was i suggesting anyone should HAVE to do the ironing or anything else while listening to music, but you knew that ;)

I play, with a band of sorts, I’m listening then :eyebrows:
I still like to dance at concerts, assuming of course the music and venue are suitable :eek:
I do the “sesh” mode as well :)
I have a stereo system. One that I’ve put considerable work in to and I use it a lot.
I enjoy the modding and tinkering, I do a lot of that as well :mental:
I’m not an mp3, mobile net connected ADS sufferer either afaik :scratch:

What I do find concerning is this notion prevalent amongst audiophiles that the only way to properly listen to music is sit motionless in the sweet spot.

I came under a bit of fire when I first joined this forum for my vision of the middle aged, obsessive audiophile male, isolated from the rest of the household in his listening environment, surrounded by pieces of child and wife unfriendly technology.

Sure it’s a generalization but lets be honest here, there is a lot of truth in it.

In short, wtf has what other people do got to do with you/me/anyone as long as it doesn’t actually interfere with your enjoyment. Go on; don’t tell me, you find what others doing so irritating it spoils your day. Oh well, want the bad news? You’re getting old and grumpy :lolsign: :ner:

I can’t see a problem here.

[MartinT]

Sony PS8750 (£250 from Kent audiojumble)

Wow - that's gorgeous!

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//505/SonyPS8750-090617-684.jpg

[MartinT]

When I was younger and going through my fifteen year old's 'serious phase' I used to listen to my prog rock albums lying on the floor in the dark with the lights out. I found it surprisingly profound back then, actually. So maybe there's something in this - the right rake of recline (bit of alliteration there for Alan) will transform your sound! ;-)

Gosh, yes. I used to listen to my albums 'reversed' with my head almost between the speakers. At other times, mates or a girlfriend would join me and we would listen to an entire side without talking. What is it with people's attention span these days?

[jandl100]

I came under a bit of fire when I first joined this forum for my vision of the middle aged, obsessive audiophile male, isolated from the rest of the household in his listening environment, surrounded by pieces of child and wife unfriendly technology.

Sure it’s a generalization but lets be honest here, there is a lot of truth in it.


Hey - that's me you're talkin' 'bout! :lol:

[griffo104]

No, it's really not arrogance. The guy's a DJ. He spends his time in clubs. He's noticed when a 'name' DJ does a set, people no longer dance; they turn and face the DJ and record the experience, rather than engage in the experience.

I think a DJ would rather people dance than have a floor full of human camera stands.

I've sat next to people in concerts who spend virtually the whole concert on their iPhones tweeting that they are at a concert. Is Bartók really enhanced by knowing that Sam Likes This, but that Helen has never heard of Bartók? Are these statements really so ultimately pressing that people have to interrupt their listening and spend the next five minutes scanning Wikipedia to add some edited highlights about Bartók to their Facebook wall to make them look important? Perhaps instead of telling people they were listening to Bartók they actually listened to Bartók, they might have noticed they had been listening to Janácek (and no, I can't find the little tilda above the 'c' on the keyboard) for the last five minutes. If someone fails to notice the audience around them applauding because they were too engrossed in what was happening on their iPhone screen, I'd put them in the 'disengaged with the music' camp.

Friends of mine who still gig regularly find this particularly distressing. It's like being told every few seconds that your artwork is unimportant compared to knowing that Angela is buying noodles or that Gary's cat just farted.

There is nothing wrong with listening to music passively while doing something else. But does that have to extend to every single time you listen to music? Is music really so unimportant that it demands no processing cycles at all? Can you really 'get' Beethoven's Ode To Joy or Lady Gaga's Poker Face or any piece of music while simultaneously ironing a shirt, phoning a friend and watching Jeremy Kyle with the sound turned down? I think sometimes, the music is important enough and important enough to the individual at that time that it demands a bit more attention.

If we are collectively losing the art of active listening to music, what is so bad about a few people trying to preserve it?

Sadly allowing twitter and Facebook on phones is going to do this. I've noticed it happening too often in the cinema as well as at music events.

The flip side of the classic album set is the music only bake offs. I had one last year and one of the guys took about 5 of my albums home with him, This was listening on my very basic and affordable system and it was ALL new music - nothing that can be deemed classic.

I listen to a very wide range of music so some of it obviously missed the listeners but as one pointed out, it's good hear what's out there outside of their normal musical scope.

I attended a bake off about 5 years ago now, my 2nd one, and sadly there were, imo, too many sad hifi audiophiles there so we had to listen to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of The Moon so often. this was a hifi bakeoff so every change to the system out came floyd. I wanted to kill everyone in the room by the end of it - a totally soulless and despairing day.

I'm a little out there as I grew up listening to Metal and Indie music so my classic album list won't match what was trying to achieved here. I think a musical even should open musical as well as hifi horizons so get some new music in. Too much old music - but that's just me.

Out of interest and hopefully Marco won't mind me pointing to another forum and he can remove this if it's a problem but over on the Wigwam one of the guys runs a Wammers Album Club. Each week a classic album is selected and on Tuesday all who are interested listen to the album and comment on it - both good and bad. It's a very interesting thread and even though musically most of it doesn't appeal to me even I've joined in.

Also Whizzkid on there has started a series of threads as a sort of intro to different genres so you can find out about new music and expand your musical horizons.

Whereas I can see what the CAS is doing and think it's a good thing new music has to be brought to these things at some point to allow a different mindset to join in. Too many people alread think audiophiles only ever listen to old music classic (if that's what it's called I suppose) and put their head in the sands to some of the fantastic music we now have available. May be this is where things can move onwards and upwards.

[lurcher]

If we are collectively losing the art of active listening to music, what is so bad about a few people trying to preserve it?

I agree, but I think there is something even more important about this than HiFi. If people stop actively listening to music, then its possible we will stop creating music that justifies such intense scrutiny. We all use music as background to our life, but if its only ever background we may loose the ability to distinguish Coltrain from Kenny G (which takes work on the part of the listener), so stop producing Coltrains, which would be tragic.

[John]

I sometimes think the whole obessive culture of the 80s amd 90s has backfored on us. The marketing at the time was about very expensive equipment and continual upgrades, meanwhile what people are buying has in many ways moved on. Its about convience and technology that convergence hence people using mobile phones Ipads etc. On the whole it seems from the outside people want as less clutter as possible so its very hard to market big speakers.
Many of us got caught with the marketing hype I know I did for a long time, many of us also discovered their was other ways to get good sound either by using vintage or learning from the lessons of the DIY communities, so unfortantly a lot of trust has been lost and it seems we are looking for a scapegoat
People still love music I see a lot of youth still going to gigs and listening to music on their ipods etc, when was in my teens in 20s I could not give a frig about HIFI but loved music
I am not sure where this leaves us perhaps uncertain times, but people will always love music

[griffo104]

I sometimes think the whole obessive culture of the 80s amd 90s has backfored on us. The marketing at the time was about very expensive equipment and continual upgrades, meanwhile what people are buying has in many ways moved on. Its about convience and technology that convergence hence people using mobile phones Ipads etc. On the whole it seems from the outside people want as less clutter as possible so its very hard to market big speakers.
Many of us got caught with the marketing hype I know I did for a long time, many of us also discovered their was other ways to get good sound either by using vintage or learning from the lessons of the DIY communities, so unfortantly a lot of trust has been lost and it seems we are looking for a scapegoat
People still love music I see a lot of youth still going to gigs and listening to music on their ipods etc, when was in my teens in 20s I could not give a frig about HIFI but loved music
I am not sure where this leaves us perhaps uncertain times, but people will always love music

People will always love music but, from the youngsters I know, they have moved away from listening to the album. The ipod culture has made it to easy to be selective with what they listen to.

I will remember buying albums and hating a couple of songs but you basicallyhad to listen to them as you either had to fast forward, on tape, or get up and move the arm, on decks. CD made it all to easy to skip the songs you disliked.

How many times have you bought an album disliked a couple of songs but 12 months later love them and think the album is great ? A great example for me is Sandanista. When I listen on vinyl it's allthe way through but I'm not the only one once it was on CD decided to rip a 'proper' version of the album with the songs that should have been on there (and it's no triple album either regardless of it says on the cover).

It's the mentality of it and that's a problem from the format rather than the listener as giving them the option has allowed them to become selective.
ipods have taken that even further than CD as well.

[Werner Berghofer]

Simon,


we had to listen to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of The Moon so often […] I wanted to kill everyone in the room by the end of it

I can relate to this, and be assured: I feel with you :-)

Werner.

[John]

Its to general to say youth do not listen to albums as whole but I think you have a point on how people listen to music these days
Music changes; the way we listening is now changing I just see it more part of life as for people creating music I personally have no worries about that
For me I love listening to albums as a whole and will often listen to very complex pieces of work but thats me I do not expect others to follow

[MartinT]

Out of interest and hopefully Marco won't mind me pointing to another forum and he can remove this if it's a problem but over on the Wigwam one of the guys runs a Wammers Album Club. Each week a classic album is selected and on Tuesday all who are interested listen to the album and comment on it - both good and bad. It's a very interesting thread and even though musically most of it doesn't appeal to me even I've joined in.

I like that idea a lot.

[greenhomeelectronics]

Wow, what a fascinating thread this has turned out to be!!
When I set up our business about 7 years ago we sold a lot of VCRs and TVs before we settled on hifi. I think it must be 3 years since I last sold a VCR. The TV's I used to get £120 for are now worth nothing. Not so many years ago the average Technics CD player would get 3 times what it would fetch now and would sell within days rather than weeks.
We used to get offered a lot of vintage gear as people moved in to houses that were too small to take it, quite often we would trade a seperates system for a Denon "all in one" system or similar. Nobody thought for one minute that the Denon was as good as the system it replaced but if your lounge is only just about big enough for a flat screen tv, a couch and very little else then what choice do you have? The vast majority of the vintage gear seems to have gone now, we get offered far less now than we ever used to, what we do get takes far longer to sell. We do still see niche demand for good valve stuff and decent turntables, when we get them.
Bear with me a minute while I go slightly off piste.....
In my car I have a cheap chinese all in one system. It has 2 sd card slots, reverse camera, dvd player, tv, radio, satnav, split screens (sat nav in front with dvd showing on rear screens) and bluetooth integration. On the micro Sd card I so far have about 2000 of my favourite tracks. It sounds ok for what it is. In my other car I have a factory fitted Alpine system that sounds simply fantastic. Trouble is that all too often I miss the integration and features that the cheap (£180) Chinese system offers me.
I think we maybe seeing the same thing with domestic hifi. Where people used to ask me how good something sounded they are now far more likely to ask about blue LED's, how many hours of music will it hold (seriously, someone asked me that about a Technics cd player just yesterday) and will it connect to my PC.
The world has changed and continues to do so, the speed of change seems to have increased. People want to have thousands of tracks on a piece of plastic that is smaller than a postage stamp, few seem to care about the quality. Look at the kit the mainstream manufacturers used to produce and the advertising that went along with it. 30 years ago the pitch was all about quality and electrical design. Now it's all about bling and compact size, except for just a handful of niche players.
Strangely enough we are seeing increased demand for classic valve stuff and decent turntables, so maybe there is hope yet. :)
Dave.

[Alan Sircom]

Yep, I know about the terminally distracted concert attendee.

I’ve yet to see an entire dance floor grind to a halt to record a mainly acoustic event on a moble phone, but yep, people do it, and yep, it can be irritating.

It doesn’t mean the DJ or band have to throw a hissy fit over it though and tbh it doesn’t bother me if that’s what people want to do. It doesn’t stop you dancing or enjoying the music as long as you don’t have a "nanny knows best" attitude.

Obviously the type of music and the environment it’s played in has a bearing ;)

Nor was i suggesting anyone should HAVE to do the ironing or anything else while listening to music, but you knew that ;)

I play, with a band of sorts, I’m listening then :eyebrows:
I still like to dance at concerts, assuming of course the music and venue are suitable :eek:
I do the “sesh” mode as well :)
I have a stereo system. One that I’ve put considerable work in to and I use it a lot.
I enjoy the modding and tinkering, I do a lot of that as well :mental:
I’m not an mp3, mobile net connected ADS sufferer either afaik :scratch:

What I do find concerning is this notion prevalent amongst audiophiles that the only way to properly listen to music is sit motionless in the sweet spot.

I came under a bit of fire when I first joined this forum for my vision of the middle aged, obsessive audiophile male, isolated from the rest of the household in his listening environment, surrounded by pieces of child and wife unfriendly technology.

Sure it’s a generalization but lets be honest here, there is a lot of truth in it.

In short, wtf has what other people do got to do with you/me/anyone as long as it doesn’t actually interfere with your enjoyment. Go on; don’t tell me, you find what others doing so irritating it spoils your day. Oh well, want the bad news? You’re getting old and grumpy :lolsign: :ner:

I can’t see a problem here.

Oh no, I agree that the idea people are supposed to accept the audiophile way as the One True Way is hopelessly flawed. Some might relish the privacy aspect of locking yourself away with the music and sitting in a precise sweet spot, I think a shared music experience is every bit as valid and enjoyable. Sadly, I can't find many family members who want to have a shared musical experience when it comes to having a Guided by Voices weekend, but the idea is a good one.

TBH, I think the idea of the audiophile locked in his man cave coveting his precious records runs entirely contrary to what this is about. Perhaps if the audiophile in his man cave invited his kids in and showed them what it was all about instead of making the experience almost impossible to engage with, there might be slightly more widespread interest in audio today.

[...]

Sitting next to someone at a concert constantly massaging their iPod is intensely annoying, but it would have been just as intensely annoying if I were 30 years younger (the person I saw who lose the plot at someone endlessly sending txt messages in a cinema to his friend in the same cinema a couple of years ago was about 14). Otherwise, I say let them do whatever they want. And if they want to deepen their knowledge of a piece of music, the Classic Album Sundays events are a pretty good way of doing just that. No one's forcing them to attend, just if they attend they abide by the rules, just as they would abide by the rules if they attended a book club, a chess club or a karate club (but without the broken toes). And the rules are pretty simple; give the music (and the rest of the people listening to it) some respect. Just for as long as it takes to play an album all the way through.

It's surprising just how many people fess up that they haven't done that in years. Which implies it's not necessarily about teaching yoof how to behave in front of an album, but also about reaching a group of people who bought that album (possibly when it first came out) reconnecting with they way they used to listen.

Perhaps even more importantly, it's about the communal experience. When was the last time you sat down with a few friends and you all listened to an album you loved from beginning to end? When was the last time you got so much out of listening to an album that you turned to the people around you and just had to share the feelings that experience brought out in you?

As I've said earlier, this is not a new thing. John Crabbe used to advocate running hi-fi evenings, where the enthusiast would share his or her love of music through a programme of events, rather like a Proms concert on vinyl or tape. These weren't to show off the equipment, force people into the audiophile cult, drum up business or show off his classical music knowledge, it was about being passionate about the music and sharing that passion with a group of like-minded individuals.

Somewhere down the line, we have all lost some of that ability to focus, and a lot of the ability to share the experience, because we make ourselves time-poor by being permanently connected to our own little spaces through phones and wifi. I like the idea of going completely off grid, just for an hour or so, to share the experience of reconnecting with an album I loved so much that I played the grooves out of it when first I bought it.

I may be wrong, but I don't think that sounds like old git mentality to me.

[Alan Sircom]

Out of interest and hopefully Marco won't mind me pointing to another forum and he can remove this if it's a problem but over on the Wigwam one of the guys runs a Wammers Album Club. Each week a classic album is selected and on Tuesday all who are interested listen to the album and comment on it - both good and bad. It's a very interesting thread and even though musically most of it doesn't appeal to me even I've joined in.

Also Whizzkid on there has started a series of threads as a sort of intro to different genres so you can find out about new music and expand your musical horizons.

Whereas I can see what the CAS is doing and think it's a good thing new music has to be brought to these things at some point to allow a different mindset to join in. Too many people alread think audiophiles only ever listen to old music classic (if that's what it's called I suppose) and put their head in the sands to some of the fantastic music we now have available. May be this is where things can move onwards and upwards.

I do like the idea of the Wammers Album Club, but there's a difference between a shared and a communal experience. Everyone in their individual homes listening to the same album is very different to having 10 or 20 people in the same room listening to the same album. I appreciate that the distances involved make this functionally impossible, but the whole communal thing is worth experiencing... it's a real eye opener.

And I agree completely about the potential problem of the 'Classic' part of the Classic Album movement overshadowing the concept itself. But it's not just about DSOTM - the suggestions list drawn up at the last few Hanbury Arms sessions have included 'Out of Control' by Girls Aloud, 'Rude System' by the Ballistic Brothers, 'De Stijl' by the White Stripes and 'Reign in Blood' by Slayer.

[Alan Sircom]

Thinking about this, it has absolutely nothing to do with the OP. Perhaps this should be moved to a more appropriate thread?

Mods?

[griffo104]

I do like the idea of the Wammers Album Club, but there's a difference between a shared and a communal experience. Everyone in their individual homes listening to the same album is very different to having 10 or 20 people in the same room listening to the same album. I appreciate that the distances involved make this functionally impossible, but the whole communal thing is worth experiencing... it's a real eye opener.

And I agree completely about the potential problem of the 'Classic' part of the Classic Album movement overshadowing the concept itself. But it's not just about DSOTM - the suggestions list drawn up at the last few Hanbury Arms sessions have included 'Out of Control' by Girls Aloud, 'Rude System' by the Ballistic Brothers, 'De Stijl' by the White Stripes and 'Reign in Blood' by Slayer.

I like the communal aspect, wonder how difficult it would be to do a regional AoS meet for just such a thing but doing it at each other's houses ?

Do a share and also listen to the system that person listens on and have an understanding of why they made their hifi choices ?

Sort of like a bake off but with the music already lined up beforehand. Listen to the album in full then have sweep round for some new music the crowd wouldn't normally listen to ?

Oh and there is a new thread started

[Marco]

TBH, I think the idea of the audiophile locked in his man cave coveting his precious records runs entirely contrary to what this is about. Perhaps if the audiophile in his man cave invited his kids in and showed them what it was all about instead of making the experience almost impossible to engage with, there might be slightly more widespread interest in audio today.

Too bloody right, Alan - and I've said this many times before on here!

We need to engage our kids more in our love of good SOUND, which enriches our enjoyment of music, and try and spark their interest in this. I guess that, music-wise, they'll listen to whatever they want. But having evenings where the family sits together and listens to music on a quality hi-fi system (perhaps expanding collective musical tastes in the process), rather than around the goggle-box or having our heads stuck in Playstations, laptops, or whatever, and TALKING to each other in the process, would be a far healthier and more productive way for families to spend their free time.

Unfortunately,we all seem to live separate lives now, rather than behaving as proper families. There's a lot to be said for the simple things in life and how we lived before computer technology took over... No wonder we're breeding a nation of bloody zombies! :doh:


Somewhere down the line, we have all lost some of that ability to focus, and a lot of the ability to share the experience, because we make ourselves time-poor by being permanently connected to our own little spaces through phones and wifi. I like the idea of going completely off grid, just for an hour or so, to share the experience of reconnecting with an album I loved so much that I played the grooves out of it when first I bought it.


Too bloody right +1!! I'd rather be cash-poor (with the basics to survive and no debts) and time-rich, than vice versa, any day....

What you describe is a major bugbear of mine!

Folk these days are too busy running around like headless chickens, working all the hours God sends, to fund lifestyles on loans and credit cards they can't afford, because they think that they're entitled to live in a big house, run two cars, have three holidays a year and give their kids ludicrously expensive toys and clothes, and fill their homes with endless amounts of technological paraphernalia, none of which they can genuinely afford, which impacts on their ability to spend quality time (in some cases almost nil) with their friends and family, or even have some 'me time'.

It's all wrong!! We work FAR too long hours in this country and are unhealthily obsessed with cluttering our lives with 'stuff'.... What happened to the art of conversation, people spending quality time with each other, and interacting together as human beings??

And everyone seems to need to be contactable all of the time, or have a freakin' iPod/iPad or whatever strapped to them 24/7, even when they are on holiday. Feck that shit! No-one seems to be able to relax (in peace and quiet), and totally swtich off when necessary, these days.... :rolleyes:

I refuse to live like that, so therefore divorce myself as far as possible from our unhealthy (and un-human) technology-obsessed world. The only bollocks I have like that is a laptop and a (very basic) mobile phone, which is only used on rare occasions. When your life is run by computerised technology, and you seemingly can't function without it, with IT controlling you (subliminally or otherwise), rather than YOU contolling it, then you know you've finally lost the plot and become a semi-robot....


I may be wrong, but I don't think that sounds like old git mentality to me.

It isn't. You're just trying to live your LIFE as far as possible like a human being, rather than allowing your existence to be governed and dehumanised by technology. Note the differentiation between 'life' and 'existence' ;)

So try and stay off of that grid as often as you can!

<Rant Over>

Marco.

[Alex_UK]

Thinking about this, it has absolutely nothing to do with the OP. Perhaps this should be moved to a more appropriate thread?

Mods?

I think so - Marco can make the call, though. :)

[Marco]

Go ahead, dude. You have the controls! :)

Marco.

[Welder]

The cynics take.

When I was a lad...........
Wait! It wont hurt, promise ;)

In my early teens (40 something years ago) we had a Radiogram. The sound quality wasn’t that great, if you tried to play it loud the cabinet tended to shake and the sound distorted. The whole family used it; Dad playing his Big Band jazz, Mum mostly classical and we kids badgered the adults to listen to Allan Freemans Top of The Pops and if we were lucky a bit of pirate radio.
Basically there was no Hi Fi as such and music was still very much a social thing.

If you wanted to immerse yourself in the music experience you went to a concert.
Youth culture was Mods and Rockers and it wasn’t that unusual to see a group of these lads parked up by a Chippy clustered around a transistor radio trying to listen to their favorite radio station through the crackle and hiss.
Hi Fi, well that crept in through publications like Electronics Weekly.

Basically there was no Hi Fi as such and music was still very much a social thing.

Then you lot, the audio trade got hold of it. You sold us the “system” and a lifestyle to match. Music got marketed more as a personal experience and with that came the hobby aspect, the audiophile in its strictest definition. To be one of these you had to buy the equipment, lots of it in fact. Sound quality became a key aspect and music quality less so perhaps, certainly from the Hi Fi journals that sprang up.
The whole industry marketed the personal system approach and from memory I don’t recall an awful lot of crossover between the music and the kit, music tended to sell itself, it always has, technology, well imo that’s a bit different.

So, it was the Hi Fi media and Hi Fi manufacturers that led the push for this “personal” high quality audio experience. Not a lot of profit in encouraging people to attend concerts when you want them to play records on the kit you want to sell is there?
Less profit if the “family” has a shared stereo system; way better to sell each member their own kit, loads more profit there.

Like a lot of marketing imo it all got a bit out of hand. To experience the full audio experience (note this says nothing about the music) you just had to have this or that piece of equipment and its still going on to this day. Of course, you have to do this if you belong to the trade coz if we don’t buy it you don’t work.

So let’s back off the quality music bit and the knocking of the mp3 generation and the other stuff that interferes with your profit margins. Instead, look at the mp3 player as the new portable transistor radio. Low quality repaly systems didn’t seem to discourage people from listening to music in the past and I very much doubt it will in the future.
What it is likely to do if you lot don’t pull your fingers out is put you out of business.

People have been listening to and making music for generations. Its been a largely social activity.
Hi Fi and the sacred grail of the audio experience has been around maybe 40 years.
There’s an irony in there somewhere.
Just a point of view and no offense intended.

[MartinT]

Thinking about this, it has absolutely nothing to do with the OP. Perhaps this should be moved to a more appropriate thread?

John has kicked things off here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12613

[Alan Sircom]

The cynics take.

When I was a lad...........
Wait! It wont hurt, promise ;)

In my early teens (40 something years ago) we had a Radiogram. The sound quality wasn’t that great, if you tried to play it loud the cabinet tended to shake and the sound distorted. The whole family used it; Dad playing his Big Band jazz, Mum mostly classical and we kids badgered the adults to listen to Allan Freemans Top of The Pops and if we were lucky a bit of pirate radio.
Basically there was no Hi Fi as such and music was still very much a social thing.

If you wanted to immerse yourself in the music experience you went to a concert.
Youth culture was Mods and Rockers and it wasn’t that unusual to see a group of these lads parked up by a Chippy clustered around a transistor radio trying to listen to their favorite radio station through the crackle and hiss.
Hi Fi, well that crept in through publications like Electronics Weekly.

Basically there was no Hi Fi as such and music was still very much a social thing.

Then you lot, the audio trade got hold of it. You sold us the “system” and a lifestyle to match. Music got marketed more as a personal experience and with that came the hobby aspect, the audiophile in its strictest definition. To be one of these you had to buy the equipment, lots of it in fact. Sound quality became a key aspect and music quality less so perhaps, certainly from the Hi Fi journals that sprang up.
The whole industry marketed the personal system approach and from memory I don’t recall an awful lot of crossover between the music and the kit, music tended to sell itself, it always has, technology, well imo that’s a bit different.

So, it was the Hi Fi media and Hi Fi manufacturers that led the push for this “personal” high quality audio experience. Not a lot of profit in encouraging people to attend concerts when you want them to play records on the kit you want to sell is there?
Less profit if the “family” has a shared stereo system; way better to sell each member their own kit, loads more profit there.

Like a lot of marketing imo it all got a bit out of hand. To experience the full audio experience (note this says nothing about the music) you just had to have this or that piece of equipment and its still going on to this day. Of course, you have to do this if you belong to the trade coz if we don’t buy it you don’t work.

So let’s back off the quality music bit and the knocking of the mp3 generation and the other stuff that interferes with your profit margins. Instead, look at the mp3 player as the new portable transistor radio. Low quality repaly systems didn’t seem to discourage people from listening to music in the past and I very much doubt it will in the future.
What it is likely to do if you lot don’t pull your fingers out is put you out of business.

People have been listening to and making music for generations. Its been a largely social activity.
Hi Fi and the sacred grail of the audio experience has been around maybe 40 years.
There’s an irony in there somewhere.
Just a point of view and no offense intended.

Yeah, if only we'd stuck with radiograms and little transistor radios. None of this would have happened. :rolleyes:

[Marco]

:lolsign:

I think sometimes John forgets that this is a specialist forum for hi-fi and also music enthusiasts, where we care about how music is reproduced, as well as the music itself... AoS would not be AoS, otherwise! ;)

Alan, what do you think of the points I made in post #434? I'd value your opinion.

Marco.

[DSJR]

Now now children ;)

My son's Sony personal music player (ATRAK compression I think) sounds quite good into the main stereo, surprisingly so IMO, so a half decent amp and speakers (or little actives to save loads of space and dosh), driven by one of these might just be the way in youngsters need. Some of these little actives can look the bizz too.. I know I keep banging on about it, but if cheap but good quality sound is the thing, then I still think it's a very valid option. The vintage kick "we" are all on here will come much later I think.

[Alan Sircom]

:lolsign:

Alan, what do you think of the points I made in post #434?

Marco.

Yep, we are both on the same page on this one. Especially the amount of time we spend working. It's interesting that the places where good sound (in all its guises) is still best appreciated are the places where people aren't ground down by crazy work hours. Or, in Asia, are wealthy enough to pay other people to do their work for them.

There are exceptions of course. The Spanish have lots of free time compared to the typical Brit and a relatively vibrant music scene, but audio there is almost non-existent. Portugal OTOH is (or at least 'was'... we'll see what the downturn does to Portugal) hugely into its music and its audio.

[Marco]

It's all bollocks, isn't it? As they say, you're a long time dead!! ;)

People need to start simplifying their lives, and prioritising what is *really* important (having TIME to spend with your friends and loved ones, whether that's spent listening to music or not, and shunning the importance of having unnecessary material possessions, and the need to work ludicrously long hours to pay for them), before it's all too late....................

Marco.

[Alan Sircom]

Now now children ;)

My son's Sony personal music player (ATRAK compression I think) sounds quite good into the main stereo, surprisingly so IMO, so a half decent amp and speakers (or little actives to save loads of space and dosh), driven by one of these might just be the way in youngsters need. Some of these little actives can look the bizz too.. I know I keep banging on about it, but if cheap but good quality sound is the thing, then I still think it's a very valid option. The vintage kick "we" are all on here will come much later I think.

Yep. I know many dismiss MP3 out of hand, but it's really not that bad. It's pretty awful sounding when someone nearby is doing a spot of unsolicited sodcasting, but with good IEMs (or even hooked to a system) an MP3 player or a smartphone sound pretty damn excellent.

[Neil McCauley]

People need to start simplifying their lives, and prioritising what is *really* important (having TIME to spend with your friends and loved ones, whether that's spent listening to music or not, and shunning the importance of having unnecessary material possessions, and the need to work ludicrously long hours to pay for them), before it's all too late.................... Marco.

In this respect I cannot recommend my twice-monthly chemotherapy too highly.

The process is far from uncomfortable and frankly in my view Cancer is no big deal. However during the predicted / inevitable fatigue periods (48 hours or so), the ability to reflect on the comparative importance of matters (precisely as opined by Marco, above) has proved both theraputic and enjoyable. All in all a very positive and life-affirming experience.

Sincerely,

Howard

---------------

[MartinT]

The process is far from uncomfortable

:stalks:

Different processes, different chemicals (read poisons). In my case, my treatments caused great discomfort and left me with an arm that was on fire, stabbing pains all day long, the complete inability to sleep and general malaise. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

The bit about the chance to review life and your priorities, though, I completely agree with.

[MartinT]

the need to work ludicrously long hours to pay for them

Not that I complain about my life in any way, Marco, but not everyone has even the luxury of knowing they will pay off their mortgage by retirement. As a previous single parent and now living on my own, I rely on my health to be able to work, and my job demands long hours. I am uninsurable health-wise so I would lose pretty much everything if I had to stop working.

As I said, I'm not complaining as I have a good quality of life right now; but more time for leisure I do not have.

[Marco]

Sure, Martin - I respect that. But you're definitely NOT the type of person my comments were aimed at :)

It's the rather vulgar keeping up with the Jones' social-climber types, who gauge their success in life by the amount of 'luxury' possessions/gadgets they own, to the detriment of far more important things!! :mental: :wanker:

Marco.

[Puffin]

45 pages and I am none the wiser about HFC...:rolleyes:

[Marco]

Does anyone really care? :lol:

Marco.

[Welder]

Alan wrote:

“Yeah, if only we'd stuck with radiograms and little transistor radios. None of this would have happened. ”

Awww, don’t be like that Alan :) Marco is right, I tend to forget that “Hi Fi” is as much of feature here as both sound quality and music, not necessarily mutually exclusive but for the purpose of debate, handy to differentiate.

What the audiophile community and luxury audio publications seem generally unwilling to acknowledge is, High Fidelity sound can be obtained from small portable devices; flash drive and processor, portable Dac/amp and ear buds, these days :scratch:

The “Hi Fi” Industry is in decline because they won’t adapt, or can’t adapt fast enough to new technology. By and large they are still trying to sell overpriced, over-sized and relatively under-performing products to a declining, more knowledgable, less gullible market which has less disposable income. This applies to products and publications alike.

All the hysteria about the youth no longer being interested in music or sound quality is just isn’t true. What may well be true is they are not even remotely interested in the audiophile’s hobby and frankly I don’t blame them. I’m not either and nor it seems are a number of contributors here. What I and others it seems are interested in is “audio quality” and music. We seem to be getting it without having to enter a “Hi Fi” retail outlet or read a “Hi Fi” publication or spend ludicrous amounts of money.

I appreciate its may be uncomfortable financially to many with vested interests in the business, but attempting to play the sacred audio cow card and employing scare monger tactics regarding the inevitable disappearance of the quality audio experience (whatever that is) if we don’t all band together and dig deeper into our already depleted pockets from financing the industry in the past, isn’t going to work, and nor is running down the musical tastes, lifestyle and audio acuity of the up and coming generations.

The only thing worth preserving here is the music and peoples desire to create and listen to it.

I think I’ve written enough on this topic now. I wish Alan and any others involved in bringing quality audio to the masses the best of luck, whatever their motives :)

[chelsea]

Be nice if the classic album could be played on a classic system of that year.

[Mr. C]

Alan,

You were quite correct all those years ago when we first discussed the chip on shoulder issue.

More than ever it is most relivant :lol:

[Marco]

Yep, we are both on the same page on this one. Especially the amount of time we spend working. It's interesting that the places where good sound (in all its guises) is still best appreciated are the places where people aren't ground down by crazy work hours.

I think that there is definitely something in that. If you've got more time to yourself, and you like music and good sound, chances are you'll spend a percentage of this time involved in enjoying that activity.

We've got it completely wrong in the UK, as far as work/life balance is concerned, and it's getting worse, with proposed retirement ages going up, not down.... :(

You mentioned Londoners earlier, and how they considered that anything north of there is a "wasteland", the irony of which I had to chuckle at, as I wouldn't live in London if you PAID me....! :nono:

I value the peace and tranquillity, fresh air and beautiful scenery of North Wales too much! The thought of being crammed inside tube trains, like sardines, during the rush hour every day, or stuck on the M25 for hours, fills me with horror.... :eek:

I know people who live in the suburbs of London, but work in the centre, whose typical working day is getting up a 5.30am every morning, in order to begin their commute into London at 6.15am, and who get into work for 9am, work until 6pm, and then have to do the whole bloody thing again on the way back home - and so often don't get in until well after 9pm, sometimes nearer 10pm if there are delays! :mental:

What the hell do you feel like doing when you get in at that time of night?? By the time you've had your dinner, it's time to go to bed! That's NO life - it is merely an existence..... Ok, this guy's earning close on £100k a year, but so what, I wouldn't do what he does for £500k a year!!! :rolleyes:

Like you say, they've got it right in the likes of Spain, and I can speak from experience and say that it's the same in Italy and France....

So what are they doing right, in terms of their work/life balance, that we're doing wrong?

Marco.

[Neil McCauley]

So what are they doing right, in terms of their work/life balance, that we're doing wrong? Marco.

Some allegedly (and only so because I don’t know them) experts in that field have opined that one answer to this perplexing question is the UK preoccupation with home ownership and associated mortgages – whereas the proportion of mortgages in the countries you mention (and therefore greater acceptance of rental) being far less might be an influence.

I don’t have the comparative facts to hand. However the general thrust of that argument resonates with me. Regards. Howard.


-----------------

[Marco]

Yup, that could definitely be a factor, Howard! :)

I also think that there is a preoccupation in the UK with the ownership of all sorts of superficial things, which people in other countries care less about, and who in general are happier with simpler lives, without the need so much to 'impress' their peers, or portray their 'status', through the accumulation of gratuitous material possessions................. ;)

I find the dichotomy of mindsets in that area rather interesting!

Marco.

[Neil McCauley]

Yup, that could definitely be a factor, Howard! :)

I also think that there is a preoccupation in the UK with the ownership of all sorts of superficial things, which people in other countries care less about, and who in general are happier with simpler lives, without the need so much to 'impress' their peers, or portray their 'status', through the accumulation of gratuitous material possessions................. ;)

I find the dichotomy of mindsets in that area rather interesting!

Marco.

Happy daze Marco, happy daze indeed!

Howard


*******************

[Marco]

Lol.... I blame the 'aspirational' message portrayed by TV 'make-over' programmes, which women here are obsessed with, and are determined to outdo each other and spend whatever it takes to achieve it!

Seriously though, the concept of having a 'sitting room', used solely for 'guests' visiting, suitably 'preened' and decorated to the high heavens, which at all other times remains unused, is hugely bizarre and rather amusing to the non-British ;)

And when that mindset is then carried into other aspects of life, well.............

Marco.

[Neil McCauley]

Lol.... I blame the 'aspirational' message portrayed by TV 'make-over' programmes, which women here are obsessed with, and are determined to outdo each other and spend whatever it takes to achieve it!

Seriously though, the concept of having a 'sitting room', used solely for 'guests' visiting, suitably 'preened' and decorated to the high heavens, which at all other times remains unused, is hugely bizarre and rather amusing to the non-British ;)

And when that mindset is then carried into other aspects of life, well.............

Marco.

Dear Marco. An interesting topic perhaps worthy of a fresh thread? If so, I'll contribute with care. Sincerely, Howard.


*****************

[Marco]

Go right ahead, with my blessing! :)

Marco.

[lurcher]

Seriously though, the concept of having a 'sitting room', used solely for 'guests' visiting, suitably 'preened' and decorated to the high heavens, which at all other times remains unused, is hugely bizarre and rather amusing to the non-British

You find exactly the same thing in the older Irish generations. Not just British.

[Alan Sircom]

Alan wrote:

“Yeah, if only we'd stuck with radiograms and little transistor radios. None of this would have happened. ”

Awww, don’t be like that Alan :) Marco is right, I tend to forget that “Hi Fi” is as much of feature here as both sound quality and music, not necessarily mutually exclusive but for the purpose of debate, handy to differentiate.

What the audiophile community and luxury audio publications seem generally unwilling to acknowledge is, High Fidelity sound can be obtained from small portable devices; flash drive and processor, portable Dac/amp and ear buds, these days :scratch:

The “Hi Fi” Industry is in decline because they won’t adapt, or can’t adapt fast enough to new technology. By and large they are still trying to sell overpriced, over-sized and relatively under-performing products to a declining, more knowledgable, less gullible market which has less disposable income. This applies to products and publications alike.

All the hysteria about the youth no longer being interested in music or sound quality is just isn’t true. What may well be true is they are not even remotely interested in the audiophile’s hobby and frankly I don’t blame them. I’m not either and nor it seems are a number of contributors here. What I and others it seems are interested in is “audio quality” and music. We seem to be getting it without having to enter a “Hi Fi” retail outlet or read a “Hi Fi” publication or spend ludicrous amounts of money.

I appreciate its may be uncomfortable financially to many with vested interests in the business, but attempting to play the sacred audio cow card and employing scare monger tactics regarding the inevitable disappearance of the quality audio experience (whatever that is) if we don’t all band together and dig deeper into our already depleted pockets from financing the industry in the past, isn’t going to work, and nor is running down the musical tastes, lifestyle and audio acuity of the up and coming generations.

The only thing worth preserving here is the music and peoples desire to create and listen to it.

I think I’ve written enough on this topic now. I wish Alan and any others involved in bringing quality audio to the masses the best of luck, whatever their motives :)

I'm not convinced I fit the stereotype you have cut out for me. If you read post #444, you'll see that I'm pretty far from being against portable devices or 'ear buds' (although I prefer the term IEM, or In-Ear Monitor, because 'ear buds' tends to downplay their quality and importance). In fact, IIRC, I was the one that said the only store model that seems logical to me today is 32 Ohm Audio in Portland OR, which rings every single one of your bells. This is part of the reason why I have pushed for running reviews of said IEMs, headphones, portable units and the rest, even though such products engender hostility in the existing readership. I think it's not just the future, it's the now.

Moreover, I take exceptional offense at the implication that I have ever "run down the musical tastes, lifestyle or audio acuity of the up and coming generations." I have worked at length to try to make audiophiles discover the musical world didn't end in the 1980s, or the 1950s. I have also spent years (albeit with no great success) attempting to overturn the audiophile obsession with musically bankrupt audiophile pressings and tried to reconcile the demands of new listeners with those of the initiated. I have done these things in spite of the not-inconsiderable damage making such statements has done to my professional standing in some audio circles, because I think these things need to be done.


I would like an apology, please.

[Welder]

Actually Alan that particular bit wasn’t directly addressed to you :doh:

It was a general comment more relevant to some of your contemporaries. I’ve read some of your articles and reviews so I’m bound to apologise because what ever I may think of the industry in general, you don’t fit the stereotype from what I’ve read.

I obviously need to be more careful when moving from specific to general so please accept my apologies :)

Just to clarify.

This;
“Alan wrote:

“Yeah, if only we'd stuck with radiograms and little transistor radios. None of this would have happened. ”

Awww, don’t be like that Alan Marco is right, I tend to forget that “Hi Fi” is as much of feature here as both sound quality and music, not necessarily mutually exclusive but for the purpose of debate, handy to differentiate.”

was directed to you Alan; hopefully that’s obvious.

The rest was general comment until the very end where I deliberately separated you from my general comment by using your name.
I can see from re-reading this may not have been clear.
As a rule I use “you” or a name when directing a comment to an individual.
The apology is none the less willingly given.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Seriously though, the concept of having a 'sitting room', used solely for 'guests' visiting, suitably 'preened' and decorated to the high heavens, which at all other times remains unused, is hugely bizarre and rather amusing to the non-British ;)


Well, I think that this particular (&, I agree that it's very, very strange) is Victorian is it not?

[Alan Sircom]

Actually Alan that particular bit wasn’t directly addressed to you :doh:

It was a general comment more relevant to some of your contemporaries. I’ve read some of your articles and reviews so I’m bound to apologise because what ever I may think of the industry in general, you don’t fit the stereotype from what I’ve read.

I obviously need to be more careful when moving from specific to general so please accept my apologies :)

Just to clarify.

This;
“Alan wrote:

“Yeah, if only we'd stuck with radiograms and little transistor radios. None of this would have happened. ”

Awww, don’t be like that Alan Marco is right, I tend to forget that “Hi Fi” is as much of feature here as both sound quality and music, not necessarily mutually exclusive but for the purpose of debate, handy to differentiate.”

was directed to you Alan; hopefully that’s obvious.

The rest was general comment until the very end where I deliberately separated you from my general comment by using your name.
I can see from re-reading this may not have been clear.
As a rule I use “you” or a name when directing a comment to an individual.
The apology is none the less willingly given.

Thanks, accepted and wholly forgotten about.

[Ali Tait]

Alan wrote:

“Yeah, if only we'd stuck with radiograms and little transistor radios. None of this would have happened. ”

Awww, don’t be like that Alan :) Marco is right, I tend to forget that “Hi Fi” is as much of feature here as both sound quality and music, not necessarily mutually exclusive but for the purpose of debate, handy to differentiate.

What the audiophile community and luxury audio publications seem generally unwilling to acknowledge is, High Fidelity sound can be obtained from small portable devices; flash drive and processor, portable Dac/amp and ear buds, these days :scratch:

The “Hi Fi” Industry is in decline because they won’t adapt, or can’t adapt fast enough to new technology. By and large they are still trying to sell overpriced, over-sized and relatively under-performing products to a declining, more knowledgable, less gullible market which has less disposable income. This applies to products and publications alike.

All the hysteria about the youth no longer being interested in music or sound quality is just isn’t true. What may well be true is they are not even remotely interested in the audiophile’s hobby and frankly I don’t blame them. I’m not either and nor it seems are a number of contributors here. What I and others it seems are interested in is “audio quality” and music. We seem to be getting it without having to enter a “Hi Fi” retail outlet or read a “Hi Fi” publication or spend ludicrous amounts of money.

I appreciate its may be uncomfortable financially to many with vested interests in the business, but attempting to play the sacred audio cow card and employing scare monger tactics regarding the inevitable disappearance of the quality audio experience (whatever that is) if we don’t all band together and dig deeper into our already depleted pockets from financing the industry in the past, isn’t going to work, and nor is running down the musical tastes, lifestyle and audio acuity of the up and coming generations.

The only thing worth preserving here is the music and peoples desire to create and listen to it.

I think I’ve written enough on this topic now. I wish Alan and any others involved in bringing quality audio to the masses the best of luck, whatever their motives :)

Looking from the viewpoint of the younger generation, I think you are 100% correct here John. Who in their right mind would spend a fortune on separates when you can get superb sound quality from something you can carry around with you. As for IEM's, I have a pair of ultimate audio triple fi 10's. Not cheap granted, but they sound excellent, indeed better than the sennhiser 580's I used to have.

Despite what many here say, I very much doubt anyone could pick a flac from a high bitrate mp3 in a blind test. Alan is right here, mp3 can sound as good as flac.

[Marco]

Guys,


You find exactly the same thing in the older Irish generations. Not just British.



Well, I think that this particular (&, I agree that it's very, very strange) is Victorian is it not?


Sure, but this lunatic practice is adopted by plenty of folks today, around the UK. I know because I meet them during my travels as an art dealer! :mental:

Marco.

[griffo104]

Lol.... I blame the 'aspirational' message portrayed by TV 'make-over' programmes, which women here are obsessed with, and are determined to outdo each other and spend whatever it takes to achieve it!

Seriously though, the concept of having a 'sitting room', used solely for 'guests' visiting, suitably 'preened' and decorated to the high heavens, which at all other times remains unused, is hugely bizarre and rather amusing to the non-British ;)

And when that mindset is then carried into other aspects of life, well.............

Marco.

not just the women here Marco. I have a friend who did his whole house out, spent a fortune on Sonos and AV system. then decided to build a false wall to the TV and speakers were flush. He thinks it's looks fantastic.

It sounds bloody awful and I really didn't have the heart to tell him there was no need to spend the money he did on the hardware and then ruin it this way.

[DSJR]

A bit like some B&O customers of old who put the speakers behind the curtains so they couldn't be seen.....

[Alex_UK]

A bit like some B&O customers of old who put the speakers behind the curtains so they couldn't be seen.....

Anyone know where I can get some acoustically transparent lilac material from? :eyebrows:

[Yiangos]

Alex,yes,from B&O customers who decided to move on ! LOL

[Vinyleyes]

A bit like some B&O customers of old who put the speakers behind the curtains so they couldn't be seen.....

Ahhh ... yes! .......... In their "sitting rooms" ......... wouldn't do to have ugly things like that on show now .. would it ?? ...... aghhhhh .. :mental: ..... :lolsign:

[prestonchipfryer]

Guys,





Sure, but this lunatic practice is adopted by plenty of folks today, around the UK. I know because I meet them during my travels as an art dealer! :mental:

Marco.

One of my near neighbours has just that - a separate room which is only ever used when people are visiting him. There is even a downstairs loo which is 'reserved' for guests; quite bizarre really. :lol:

John

[Alex_UK]

By the way, I gave up on moving the "off-topic" conversations - we'd have had about 10 new threads and I'm sure it would have gone off on a tangent again anyway!! :lol:

[Beobloke]

A bit like some B&O customers of old who put the speakers behind the curtains so they couldn't be seen.....

I've heard a few speakers that could benefit from this sort of positioning.....

[DSJR]

... and I've just bought a pair... was it from you - seller has the same (real) name??????? Seriously, I haven't tried them yet and they're MUCH bigger than I remembered them all those years ago. Shows how a miniature from yesteryear is now practically mid sized ;) :eek:

[jostber]

All this talk on anything but Hifi mags made me take out an subscription to Hifi Critic. :)

[Folkboy]

I even worked for a guy who had a garage full of vintage Rolls Royces, but couldn't drive.
Charlie Watts is like that, just sits in the car with the engine running. He even has suits made to match the fabric of the car's interior, but has never learned (learnt?) how to drive.

[jostber]

All this talk on anything but Hifi mags made me take out an subscription to Hifi Critic. :)

Got it today, looks quite good. An interesting article by Peter Comeau called "Letter From Shenzen" discusses the cost of low cost, and another evaluates four valve amplifiers.

[Reid Malenfant]

I gave up on hifi magazines years ago, lots of pretty pictures & no real substance. Far better off using those two things on the side of your head & making your own decisions imo ;)

I don't buy food magazines just for someone to extol the virtues of macaroni, i think i can make my own informed decisions on what I like :eyebrows:

E2A:- Besides which if i want to know about the latest bells & whistles i only need to log in here no? :lolsign: It's all out there on the net after all..

[jostber]

More text than pics in this magazine though, and no ads.

[Reid Malenfant]

More text than pics in this magazine though, and no ads.
Not really any difference IMO, it's still someone else rating something ;)

If i want to know what something is like i'll form my own opinion by listening myself. I don't really trust any reviewer as they all have their own prejudices etc, i'd feel happier about getting recommendations from certain members on here having listened to certain kit at Scalford earlier this year.

At least then we have some common basis to go on ;) Where is that with a magazine? Not in the same place at the same time listening to the same equipment :rolleyes:

[jostber]

Not really any difference IMO, it's still someone else rating something ;)

If i want to know what something is like i'll form my own opinion by listening myself. I don't really trust any reviewer as they all have their own prejudices etc, i'd feel happier about getting recommendations from certain members on here having listened to certain kit at Scalford earlier this year.

At least then we have some common basis to go on ;) Where is that with a magazine? Not in the same place at the same time listening to the same equipment :rolleyes:

Isn't your listening ability built on experience, and this again is built on knowledge from different sources; like checking out different systems, reading about good setups, viewing others equipments, updating on specifications, trying to identify good value components and more? Your trained ears are a part of the total experience which is in essence is ruled by your brain. As an authoritative source of knowledge I would reckon a good hifi magazine one the of the best places to go. Some would now say that online material is the new new, but in reality a very large amount of the information online is snippet information by people throwing out something fast. I would prefer something that is thoroughly researched by someone who loves their trade and takes their time to write it. It might also be a place to go for those who for different reasons can not frequent hifi shops very often, and where the advice from the seller can be biased.

[Reid Malenfant]

Unfortunately life isn't like that now is it ;) If reviewers gave negative reviews to anything then the manufacturers wouldn't send them stuff to review now would they :rolleyes: The magazines only stay in business if they tow the line, there really isn't such a thing as anything that is independant except yourself :)

Use your own head, don't use anothers!

[jostber]

But can't my ears fool me if I don't have enough listening experience and knowledge to know how good great equipment should sound? :)

[Reid Malenfant]

But can't my ears fool me if I don't have enough listening experience and knowledge to know how good great equipment should sound? :)
IMO no... As an example a good few years back i went to audition a load of pre amps. Now nothing was changed except the pre amps & i was listening on speakers that i knew (Yamaha NS1000M). There was a DNM, a Michell Orca, a few others i can't remember & a Classe DR5...

I gave all of them some time on CD tracks that i knew, the only one that stood out which gave me goosebumps because it sounded so not there, or real if you like was the Classe DR5 & that was as soon as it was connected & turned on!

This is a class A discrete pre amp that needs hours, a day even to get to optimal temperature to give it's optimum performance. Yet even though it was a bit noisier than all the others it sounded vastly more musical :)

I'm not going to say night & day, but if you trust your own ears then the difference does actually appear to be as obvious as that in certain respects.

Needless to say Sensei is now enjoying the benefits of the DR5, it pretty much had the same effect on him once he installed it in his system...

Realism, you kind of know it simply because you have never heard such clarity before. Not some mish mash, but a new level & you know it.

[MartinT]

I think some magazines serve their purpose by helping to shortlist equipment, not necessarily to help with buying decisions. I put Stereophile firmly in that camp as they review equipment that is of interest to me.

Other magazines are good at analysis and writing excellent music and recording features, which Hi-Fi News does rather well.

They are both good reads and I am not about to ditch them, although I have moved to the electronic version of Stereophile and will do soon with HFN.

[Marco]

I find Stereophile (I guess, naturally) too American-centric, although undoubtedly well-written... Do they ever feature any vintage gear? :)

Marco.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Why should a magazine feature vintage gear, who is going to give them advertising for talking about or promoting that. If they ever do then it is just an empty gesture. Publishing companies are there to make money for their shareholders, the subject of that publishing is completely immaterial to them. Their only concern is that there are enough people who are interested to buy the mag so that advertising will follow.

[Marco]

Well, HFN and HFW regularly feature vintage gear, and in some detail too, which is one of the main reasons why I buy those mags! :)

The reason they do it is because a significant percentage of their customers want to read about it.

Marco.

[Macca]

Why should a magazine feature vintage gear, who is going to give them advertising for talking about or promoting that. If they ever do then it is just an empty gesture. Publishing companies are there to make money for their shareholders, the subject of that publishing is completely immaterial to them. Their only concern is that there are enough people who are interested to buy the mag so that advertising will follow.

Hi-fi World has been doing articles on vintage gear for almost 20 years, I guess you never read it?

[Marco]

Indeed. HFW are to be applauded for their championing of quality vintage gear - I wouldn't have discovered how good a modded Techy or Audiocom-modded vintage Sony CDPs and DACs sounded otherwise!

Marco.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

One magazine out of how many available to us, UK and US. HFW is a hi-fi devoted publishing company, so they are at least making the gesture to their readers, can you imagine Choice or Plus or What Hi-Fi doing it.

And no I don't waste my time buying and reading them, but I do go to their on-line sites occasionally to see what the subjects are.

[Marco]

Sure, you're right, but that's why the other magazines you mention hold almost zero interest for me. And in the case of WHF, it is merely fit for wiping your ass, after passing a number two (and even then it ain't much use)!!

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

Sure, you're right, but that's why the other magazines you mention hold almost zero interest for me. And in the case of WHF, it is merely fit for wiping your ass, after passing a number two (and even then it ain't much use)!!

Marco.

It's way too stiff and shiney for that.

If you are desperate, the Financial Times is OK and you don't get a lot of ink transference..:)

[Marco]

It's way too stiff and shiney for that.

If you are desperate, the Financial Times is OK and you don't get a lot of ink transference..:)

Spoken obviously by a man of experience!! :lol:

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

When times were tough, I tried many periodicals and newspapers and came to the conclusion that the Financial Times was the most effective and kindest to the bum.

This in depth testing of many unsuitable printed pages probably was responsible for my current problem with Farmer Giles..:scratch:

[griffo104]

Hifi World has always covered vo ntage gear as well as DIY stuff as well, it's why it's always come across to me as much more for the hobbyist than someone want to pore over pictures of expensive kit and buy it as a status symbol.

I enjoy mags like Hifi+ that do new and suer expensive stuff as I like reading about it, just like I subscribe to QP to read and lust over pics of watches I'll never be able to afford.

I but what interests me and for me magazines should be concentrating on new gear but it does no harm for a monthly article on classic gear from yesteryear.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Has anyone noticed the ridiculous price of toilet paper, FFS it is only paper :mental: Anyway if you have any desire to be clean then you need a shower head or a bidet. Bidet are brilliant.

[griffo104]

Has anyone noticed the ridiculous price of toilet paper, FFS it is only paper :mental: Anyway if you have any desire to be clean then you need a shower head or a bidet. Bidet are brilliant.

It's special paper that's nice to your bottom. You don't want to skimp in that area.