Utter Confusion - SUT Settings

[Boyse6748]

Andrew,

Many thanks for that, it's clarified a few confusions on my part.

You are quite correct, internal impedance is 12 ohms not 0.12 ohms.

I've now found the very posh box the Benz was supplied in and the documents for this particular cartridge and there are a few differences to my original supplied figures.

They should have been as detailed below..... and I'm not sure if it will make any difference to your assessment.

Output Voltage: 0.4 mV at 3.54 cm/s
Internal impedance 12 ohms
Recommended loading 100 - 47000 ohm
Optimum tracking force 1.7 - 2.0 grams

Sorry if I caused confusion, but I do really appreciate your response.

BTW! I'm currently trying 1:10 OC at present..... and sounds pretty good.

My confusion in sound quality (perhaps in my head) is the swop from the Whest Two (line stage) phono preamp to the SUT. I assumed the MM phono stage on the McIntosh was the business, but it is a softer sound as you might expect with a valve amp.

I've tried a couple of other SUT's without success, I.e Stevens & Billington and the Audio Note.

Perhaps, it's back to a good phono stage Preamp, unless I can get used to this sound.

Regards

Peter


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[Firebottle]

Perhaps, it's back to a good phono stage Preamp, unless I can get used to this sound.

Just because it is a McIntosh doesn't mean it is necessarily a top notch phono stage. To my eyes, having studied the schematic, it is a very average implementation of a valve phono circuit.

It uses feedback RIAA equalisation whereas passive is generally accepted to be best, plus there are electrolytic bypass capacitors in the signal path. The supply is regulated which is a plus point.

[AlfaGTV]

Just because it is a McIntosh doesn't mean it is necessarily a top notch phono stage. To my eyes, having studied the schematic, it is a very average implementation of a valve phono circuit.
...

Don't know about the Macintosh 2275 tube integrated, but a friend of mine uses an E.A.R SUT to up the signal from a ZYX cart into his Macintosh MA-7000. That works beautifully and sounds quite good!
(The Mac does not provide MC suitable amplification)

[RothwellAudio]

Cartridge outputs are sometimes specified at 3.54 cm/s, sometimes specified at 5 cm/s and sometimes "specified" at some unspecified velocity
Anyway, even at 0.4mV I would say 1:10 is the best ratio.

I'm a bit confused by the rest of the info you give though. Whest Two line stage ? I though Whest only made phonostages. And where does McIntosh fit in? Stevens and Billington transformers are very good in my experience, though I still wouldn't recommend a turns ratio much more than 1:10 if possible. Not sure what ratio you had with your S&B transformer.
My only experience with Audio Note transformers has left me unimpressed.

The best SUT/non-SUT comparison you could try is to use the cartridge straight into the Whest Two phonostage set to MC operation (about 60dB and 100 ohms(ish)) and compare it to the cartridge into the SUT into the Whest set to MM operation (about 40dB and 47k). I'm assuming the Whest can be set for MM and MC but the manual is rather vague. I note with interest however that Whest claim that "during the design stages of the whestTWO we made a crazy decision to incorporate some of the MC REF V ideas, namely its hybrid active/passive RIAA filter stage. Unlike other units at this price point that use the standard ‘input stage-Passive RIAA filter-output stage’ configuration, the whestTWO uses an identical configuration which was borrowed from the MC REF V Mk4 and this can also be found in the PS.30R. This new RIAA configuration...".
New configuration? I was using an active/passive approach to RIAA eq about 20 years ago and it was an idea I nicked from somebody else!

Anyway, when you say you have used other SUTs "without success", could you define success? What is it that you're not getting? And how come you haven't given up on SUTs by now if you had no success with S&B etc.?

[Boyse6748]

I'll try to answer your questions.

I was very happy with the Whest, apart from it's like having an electric fire on your rack (very hot !!).

What I mean about a line stage input, is that the Whest connected to an Aux Input ( CD or CD2) or what ever was free and not into the phono connection, and all parameters were selected via the Whest (as you have already mentioned).

The sound via the Whest is what I can only describe as "in your face", bearing in mind, I have a very unusual setup... Townsend Rock 7... Base Heavy and the the McIntosh MA 2275 which is soft and beautiful.

I have tried to stick with the SUT to try a different sound concept, unfortunately I do not have a Myriad of individuals to tell what is best..... or indeed better.

Perhaps to my detriment, the other SUT's I have managed to loan / borrow, didn't do it for me. if I had limitless amounts of money, I could have tried many others, perhaps with more success.

The WHest can be set exactly as you suggested and in many ways, I sort of miss this sound but I'm trying to persevere with something different.

Somewhat confused to say the least, but I thank you for your excellent advice and suggestions.

Time to sit and think !!!!

Peter



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[RothwellAudio]

I was very happy with the Whest, apart from it's like having an electric fire on your rack (very hot !!).

Perhaps to my detriment, the other SUT's I have managed to loan / borrow, didn't do it for me. if I had limitless amounts of money, I could have tried many others, perhaps with more success.

The WHest can be set exactly as you suggested and in many ways, I sort of miss this sound...

Am I right in thinking you no longer have the Whest? So now you have the McIntosh which is MM only?
So what makes you think it's the SUTs rather than the McIntosh that you don't like?
And what was it about the other SUTs that "didn't do it" for you?

Sorry for all the questions but getting as much info as possible is a big help in diagnosing the problem.
BTW, did the Whest run hotter than the McIntosh?

[Boyse6748]

Alan (Firebottle)

You have broken my heart !!!!

The McIntosh is not a good Amp with a poor MM phono stage.

Heartbroken.... lol.

We all have our favourites and the Mullard Valves do it for me.


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[Boyse6748]

It's a difficult question to answer, but no longer have the Whest for reasons that are difficult to answer.

I have have two cartridges, the Benz Wood (MC) and a Decca Super Gold (MM).

The West never really did it for the Decca but the MM on the McIntosh really worked... perfectly suited... apart from the requirement of perfectly flat vinyl ( clearance 0.5mm). I'm sure you know what I mean.

I wanted that sometime that I could play both... I.e. Direct into the McIntosh MM or swop to the SUT for the Benz (MC).

Unfortunately, it appears that running two cartridges, is not a viable option.

If I had the choice and a perfect record collection, the Decca would be the choice, but that's not the case.

For those special moments, the Decca via the McIntosh and for the rest....... the Benz via the SUT.

Sorry, but it's a bit of an old fashioned approach.

Trying to get the best of both worlds...... but maybe not possible.

If this confusing.... my apologies.

Peter


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[RothwellAudio]

There is an alternative to using a step-up transformer, and that's to use a headamp. Ok, a bit of self-interest here - I make headamps. Anyway, the headamp I make is called the Headspace and it should give you the sense of slam and impact that maybe the step-up transformers aren't giving you.
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co....c_headamp.html

There's a review here on AoS
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...ell-MC-Headamp

Anyway, it's just another option to consider.

[Boyse6748]

Andrew,

Interested, is there any chance of a trial ?...... sorry, but blown so much money on disappointment. Including pure silver interconnects.

You are obviously a bit of an guru and extremely knowledgeable.

Peter

If not , I understand. Let me know.

Peter


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