Denon 103r - is it worth the aggro?

[Bigman80]

You'll only really get that from a Decca (when it works), but in terms of soundstage, Geoff, I'd have to wholeheartedly disagree about 103s, as when you get the BEST out of them, perhaps in your time using them you didn't quite manage that, the size of the soundstage they produce is positively cavernous!

Have you ever used a NOS vintage limited edition one, with a top-notch head amp (not SUT), through a top-notch valve MM stage? And of course with a high-mass arm (and/or headshell) on a direct-drive T/T? That's where the 'magic' lies - and all those ingredients have to be in place for it to work...

Be with you shortly, Oliver. Just about finished my morning cappuccino and croissant!

Marco.

No worries!

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[Ali Tait]

Thanks Ali, that's very interesting. More detail?

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Hard to say, we were comparing it to a worn standard cart. I did like it though.

[Bigman80]

Hard to say, we were comparing it to a worn standard cart. I did like it though.

Fair enough

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[Ammonite Audio]

I once heard a 103SA sounding pretty good in Marco’s system quite a few years back, and then I bought a standard 103 which sounded awful, so I pretty much gave up on these old things. But, Ana Mighty Sound do some interesting looking 103 variants and I’m tempted (purely from a personal point of view) to try one of these http://anamightysound.com/shop/cartr...cala103-three/ , but possibly not in the Malachite body.

[Bigman80]

Ah, now they are interesting!

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[Marco]

I once heard a 103SA sounding pretty good in Marco’s system quite a few years back, and then I bought a standard 103 which sounded awful, so I pretty much gave up on these old things.

....which ably proves that there's a marked difference between what's possible with a 103, depending on the model used. So if you think you've 'heard' a 103, if you've only ever used a standard current production one (and I include the 'R' in this), then in reality you've heard but a snapshot of the real thing...

With 103s, it's all about CONTEXT, in terms of model used and the supporting equipment and ancillaries.

You have to remember that these cartridges hark from an era [late 1950s] where different 'rules' applied, in terms of what was considered as the norm, and indeed optimal way of playing vinyl records (in broadcast studios). Therefore the ONLY way to hear them properly, is to replicate (as far as possible) the 'environment' that they were used in originally.

Otherwise all you're doing is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole!

Marco.

[Marco]

Here's the pic of the 'SA' Hugo was referring to, shown fixed to a Fidelity Research headshell, and (at that time) a Jelco SA-750 arm:



I later swapped the 'SA' for an SPU, which I now regret - not getting an SPU, as that then launched me into the wonderful world of those particular gems, but that I didn't just buy one and keep the 'SA', as it, along with the 'GL' are unquestionably the best 103s (featuring the use of conical styli), ever produced.

Post coming up now for Oliver, and anyone else who may be interested...

Marco.

[Bigman80]

I presume we're talking Denon HA-500 or similar? When talking head amps.

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[Marco]

Ok, the first thing you should know, in relation to DL-103s, is that since Denon stopped trading as Nippon Columbia [later Denon Ltd] in 2002, and merged with Marantz Japan INC, the core design of the 103 changed [moving from using Alnico to rare-earth magnets in the generator], carried out in order to save costs and maintain the current relatively low selling price, for what is a high-quality MC cartridge.

The only reason the currently produced models sell for what they do (and those before it), rather than five times the amount, which would be more realistic considering the performance on offer, is because of economies of scale, due to Denon being a HUGE Japanese corporation. Therefore, you simply cannot judge this cartridge on its retail price alone.

It's 'cheap' because of the above, and because more than ten thousand of them have been produced since it was first introduced in 1958, mainly for radio stations and broadcasting studios throughout the world, but mostly in Japan, for the NHK - the Japanese equivalent of the BBC, so they needed to be in plentiful supply when replacements were required.

If it hadn't been for the above, and if the same cartridge had been produced by a 'high-end' cartridge manufacturer, with a desirable 'badge' amongst audiophiles, and housed in a quality aluminium body, it would've sold for at least £1k, perhaps more. Therefore, it has to be used and judged in that context. One of the biggest mistakes people make is thinking of it as a 'budget' £200 cartridge (due to its price tag), and so a) not treating it seriously, and b) not spending enough on partnering ancillaries, especially tonearm and phono stage.

This is a cartridge that really needs to be treated seriously and used in a certain way, in order to get the most from it, and to hear what all the fuss is about, in terms of its reputation and cult status amongst vinyl aficionados worldwide - and the sonic rewards obtained by partnering it correctly are significant. I'll get to how best to achieve that shortly.

Ok, let's go back to how the design of the 103 was changed in the early 2000s, and Denon then abandoning their use of Alnico magnets, in favour of a less expensive variety of rare-earth magnets... There are those that would say a 'magnet is a magnet', and so as long as it performs its primary function, it shouldn't matter which one is used. When it comes to things like cartridges and loudspeakers, however, I'd beg to differ.

However, I'll leave the technical folks (and anyone else interested) to debate that one, but what others and I who've been using DL-103s (of various forms), for the last 30-odd years can clearly hear, is a marked difference in sound between ones produced pre-2002 (using Alnicos), and post-2002, minus such. I can go into that in more detail for anyone who's interested, but trust me, the difference (musically) isn't subtle!

Therefore, what this essentially means is that unless you've actively sought to obtain a NOS (or good condition 2nd hand one), from the 'golden era', then the 103 you're listening to now isn't the 'real McCoy'...

And that's one of the reasons why, when buying a DL-103 it pays to check the serial number, because sometimes old stock items, lying forgotten in warehouses somewhere, can often show up for sale on the likes of ebay - AND also one of the reasons why limited edition ones sound best, simply because they were produced during the 'Alnico era'. The other important reason is because they all featured the use of improved, high-quality body-shells.

Therefore, it is the plastic shell, used on all entry-level 103s, that is *the* single most limiting factor, in terms sonic performance. Not the stylus*, tip, suspension or anything else [*only when in certain circumstances Denon chose to fit elliptical styli]. Denon themselves knew this (as that's where costs had been cut to keep the price down), which is why they addressed that issue in the design of their limited edition cartridges.

What they didn't do with those models was fit 'fancy tips' [fine-line styli], which yes in some areas improves matters (namely ultimate detail retrieval and lower distortion), if you go for one of the many 'tarted up' versions for sale, but also subsequently (and fundamentally) changes the sound, resulting in, as some have noted already, losing the 'soul' and inherent musical abilities of the cartridge in the process, and what makes it special.

If you're the type of listener who tunes into [and gets excited about] 'twinkling airy highs' and filigree detailing, and prefer cartridges with those traits, along with a lighter, brighter sound [count me out, which is why I haven't done it], then by all means fit a 'fancy stylus', FG or whatever, to a 103. But in doing so realise that you'll have lost some of the soul, bass authority and 'boogie factor' with it, as the tone (and musical nature) of the cartridge changes fundamentally, when the original stylus is replaced for something 'better'.

That's the trade-off, which always exists in some form with audio. It largely depends, however, on how you assess sound in a hi-fi context, and also what type of music you listen to mostly, as to whether or not you'll fall in love with a 'pimped 103'.

The sensible money (and considerable experience) says that retaining all else but the plastic body-shell (and perhaps upgrading the internal wiring to LC-OFC), along with the stock shell, to something less resonant, is the way to go. That's why Denon did precisely that with the DL-103SA, and others before it. Now which type of shell you choose is the fun part! Because there are so many options...

Just bear in mind that there are fundamental sonic differences between wood and metal, and then from one type of wood and metal to another!! So experimenting and listening is the only way to discover what's best for you, although in that respect I can provide some basic pointers.

So to sum things up for Oliver, and any other potential buyers of a DL-103... If you want to hear what one is truly capable of, then it *must* be NOS, pre-2002, and preferably either an M, SA (introduced after 2002, but uses generators from old stock), GL or C1. There are some other good ones too, such as the D and FL, but they sound quite different.

Plus, there is the truly superb DL-S1, and 'giant-killer' supreme (my main and favourite cartridge) but that's a rather different beast! And now unfortunately discontinued. Also, forget about hearing any of the above cartridges properly unless you have the following items in place to use them with:

1) A high-quality D/D turntable (SL-1200, SP10, EMT, Pioneer PL-71, or any of Pioneer's, Denon's, Toshiba's or Sony's best efforts from the 70s). Or with something truly amazing, as shown here, such as a Trio (Kenwood) L-07D):



2) A high-quality high-mass detachable headshell tonearm (such as those from the likes of Fidelity Research, Ortofon and Audio Technica, or Jelco).

3) Or a medium-mass 'lossy' tonearm, such as Denon's own and from other Jap manufacturers, or the likes of a NOS Linn LVV), fitted with a high-mass headshell (preferably constructed from magnesium). The high-mass bit is crucial (the magnesium bit less so, but definitely better), and in terms of mass, I'm talking minimum 18g for the headshell alone!

4) A top-notch valve MM phono stage.

5) A top-notch moving-coil head amplifier (or SUT), which loads the cartridge correctly and provides sufficient gain. However, in my experience 103s work best actively, with head amps. The Denon HA-500 is a good choice, and at the other end of the pricing scale, the popular little Lentek unit, or the likes of a Rothwell Headspace.

And last, but certainly not least, set the cartrdge up with forensic attention to detail, in terms of optimising VTA, azimuth and VTF (downforce) - and there, always aim for the higher end of the recommended user range. Also, always use non-magnetic stainless steel allen bolts, to secure the cartridge to the headshell, nipped up tightly, and good quality lead wire. The thin wires you get 'free' with basic headshells are crap, and act as a significant bottleneck.

If you can't put all (or most) of the above in place, then FORGET all about hearing any DL-103 properly!!

Bloody hell, it's lunchtime now.... Anyway, hopefully all this will be useful info.

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Ok, the first thing you should know, in relation to DL-103s, is that since Denon, as a company, stopped trading as Nippon Columbia [later Denon Ltd] in 2002, and merged with Marantz Japan INC, the core design of the 103 changed [a move from using Alnico to rare-earth magnets in the generator], done in order to save costs and maintain the relatively low selling price for what is a high-quality MC cartridge.

The only reason the currently produced models sell for what they do (and those before it), rather than five times the amount, which would be more realistic considering the performance on offer, is because of economies of scale, due to Denon being a HUGE Japanese corporation. Therefore, you simply cannot judge this cartridge on its retail price.

It's 'cheap' because of the above, and because tens of thousands of them have been produced since it was first introduced in 1958, mainly for radio stations and broadcasting houses throughout the world, but mostly in Japan, for the NHK - the Japanese equivalent of the BBC, so they needed to be in plentiful supply when replacements were required.

If it hadn't been for the above, and if the same cartridge had been produced by a 'high-end' cartridge manufacturer, with a desirable 'badge' amongst audiophiles, and housed in a quality aluminium body, it would've sold for around £1k. Therefore, it has to be used and judged in that context. One of the biggest mistakes people make is thinking of it as a 'budget' £200 cartridge (due to its price tag), and so a) not treating it seriously, and b) not spending enough on partnering ancillaries, especially tonearm and phono stage.

This is a cartridge that really needs to be treated seriously and used in a certain way, in order to get the most from it, and hear what all the fuss is about, in terms of its following/cult status amongst discerning listeners worldwide - and the sonic rewards of doing so are significant. I'll get to how best to achieve that shortly.

Ok, let's go back to how the design of the 103 was changed in the early 2000s, and Denon then abandoning their use of Alnico magnets, in favour of a less expensive variety of rare-earth magnets... There are those that would say a 'magnet is a magnet', and so as long as it performs its primary function, it shouldn't matter which one is used. When it comes to things like cartridges and loudspeakers, I'd beg to differ.

However, I'll leave the technical folks (and anyone else interested) to debate that one, but what others and I who've been using DL-103s (of various forms), for the last 30-odd years can clearly hear, is a marked difference in sound between DL-103s produced pre-2002 (using Alnicos), and post-2002, when they didn't. I can go into that in more detail for anyone who's interested, but trust me, the difference (musically) isn't subtle!

Therefore, what that essentially means is that unless you've actively sought to obtain a NOS (or good condition 2nd hand one), from the 'golden era', then the 103 you're listening to now isn't the 'real McCoy'...

And that's one of the reasons why, when buying a DL-103 it pays to check the serial number, because sometimes old stock items, lying forgotten in warehouses somewhere, can often show up for sale on the likes of ebay - AND also one of the reasons why limited edition ones sound best, because they were produced during the 'Alnico era'.

The other important reason is because they all featured the use of improved, high-quality body-shells - and so it is the plastic shell, used on all entry-level 103s, that is *the* single most limiting factor, in terms sonic performance. Not the stylus*, tip, suspension or anything else [*only when in certain circumstances Denon chose to fit elliptical styli]. Denon themselves knew that the plastic shell was the main limiting factor, which is why they addressed that area on their limited edition cartridges.

What they didn't do with those models was fit 'fancy tips' [fine-line styli], which yes in some areas improves matters (namely ultimate detail retrieval and lower distortion), if you go for one of the many 'tarted up' versions for sale, but also subsequently (and fundamentally) changes the sound, with as some have said already, losing the 'soul' and inherent musical abilities of the cartridge in the process, and what makes it special.

If you're the type of listener who tunes into twinkling 'airy highs' and filigree detailing, and prefer cartridges with those traits, along with a lighter, brighter sound [count me out, which is why I haven't done it], then by all means fit a 'fancy stylus', FG or whatever, to a 103, but in doing so realise that you'll have lost some of the soul, bass authority and 'boogie factor' with it, as the tone (and musical nature) of the cartridge changes fundamentally when the original stylus is replaced for something 'better'.

It largely depends on how you assess sound, in a hi-fi context, and also what type of music you listen to mostly, as to whether you'll fall in love with a 'pimped 103' or not.

The sensible money (and considerable experience) says that retaining all else but the plastic body-shell (and perhaps upgrading the internal wiring to LC-OFC), along with the body-shell, using a less resonant material, is the way to go. That's why Denon did precisely that with the DL-103SA, and others before it. Now which type of shell you choose is the fun part! Because there are so many options...

Just bear in mind that there are fundamental sonic differences between wood and metal, and then from one type of wood and metal to another!! So experimenting and listening is the only way to discover what's best for you, although in that respect I can provide some basic pointers.

So to sum things up for Oliver, and any other potential buyers of a DL-103... If you want to hear what one is truly capable of, then it *must* be NOS pre-2002, and preferably either an M, SA (introduced after 2002 but uses Alnicos), GL or C1. There are some other good ones too, such as the D and FL, but they sound quite different.

Plus, there is the truly superb DL-S1, and 'giant-killer' supreme (my main and favourite cartridge) but that's a rather different beast! And now unfortunately discontinued. Also, forget about hearing any of the above cartridges properly unless you have the following items in place to use them with:

1) A high-quality D/D Jap turntable (SL-1200, SP10, Pioneer PL-71, or any of Denon, Toshiba or Sony's best efforts from the 70s).

2) A high-quality high-mass detachable headshell tonearm (such as those from the likes of Fidelity Research, Ortofon and Audio Technica, or Jelco).

3) Or a medium mass 'lossy' tonearm, such as Denon's own and from other Jap manufacturers, or the likes of a Linn LVV), fitted with a high-mass headshell (preferably constructed from magnesium). The high-mass bit is crucial (the magnesium bit less so, but definitely better), and in terms of mass, I'm talking minimum 18g for the headshell alone!

4) A top-notch valve MM phono stage.

5) A top-notch moving-coil head amplifier (or SUT), but in my experience 103s work best with the former. The Denon HA-500 is a good choice, and at the other end of the pricing scale, the popular little Lentek unit, or the likes of a Rothwell Headspace.

And last, but certainly not least, set the cartrdge up with forensic attention to detail, in terms of optimising VTA, azimuth and VTF (downforce) - and there, always aim for the higher end of the recommended user range. Also, always use non-magnetic stainless steel allen bolts to secure the cartridge to the headshell, nipped up tightly, and good quality lead wire. The thin wires you get 'free' with basic headshells are crap, and act as a significant bottleneck.

If you can't put all (or most) of the above in place, then FORGET all about hearing any DL-103 properly!!

Bloody hell, it's lunchtime now.... Anyway, hopefully all this will be useful info.

Marco.

Thanks Marco! That's quite a lot to digest but I will certainly be re reading for memory sake.

So, NOS or the aforementioned "editions" are now on the list to look out for.



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