The Coffeehouse.... Baristi, Barista, Bariste

[Marco]

Lol - why do you always insist on having the last word, and leaving the discussion in a way that paints me as somehow in the wrong? Sorry, Justin, it just doesn't work like that!

I wanted to try the "shit Lidl machine", so I could find out for myself that it was shit (or not). I form opinions based on MY own experiences, no-one else's. Why you (seemingly) can't accept that, I have no idea...

Go ahead and buy the Bose of the coffee world. Or be cool and buy something that will last and is maintainable. I don't mind which you pick.

Oh but it seems that you do, because you keep going on [and on] about it, and furthermore referring to the Miele as "the Bose of the coffee world". Now that may be your opinion of it, which you're entitled to (even though you haven't tried one), but it doesn't have to be mine. Please get that into your head.

Now, if you want to leave it there for now, which is fine by me, then I suggest you don't give me any further cause to challenge your assertions. Cheers!

Marco.

[Tim]

[Marco]

Marco.

[Marco]

There's a new 'specialist' coffee shop just recently opened in Wrexham, apparently run by qualified baristas: http://kingstreetcoffee.co.uk/news/

I may drop by there during the week, check it out (see how good the coffee is), watch how they do stuff and ask for their opinion on which machine would be best for my needs

Marco [always receptive to receiving good advice].

[Svend N]

Marco, if I may comment here... Perhaps I've misread some of your posts, but it seems you may find the idea of a semi-auto machine with separate grinder, tamper, etc., a bit daunting. You've certainly heard from others that some users struggle with this and just give up after a few weeks of mediocre results. I want to reassure you that it really isn't all that difficult to get the hang of. A couple of days of practice and you'll have it nailed. After that it becomes second nature, and you can have two cappuccinos made start to finish incl. cleanup in less than five minutes. Piece of cake!

One of the keys to success, in my experience, is to have really good equipment from the start, otherwise you will end up frustrated and ditching it all. The front end is the grinder - not to be scrimped on!.... with a top notch grinder it will be hard to make a bad shot. Mazzer Mini or Macap MC4 (what we have) are two models you can't go wrong with. Then get a good tamper like an Espro (we have one also - great to learn with). After that, you don't need a $3000 machine to make great espresso - something like a Rancilio Sylvia or Nouva Simonelli Oscar will make a perfect shot, are built to last, have nice clean looks, and don't cost a second mortgage. The key here is temperature control - e.g. the Sylvia is notorious for having wild temp swings and being frustratingly difficult to get consistent shots from, so a PID to stabilize it is almost an essential add-on. With a heat exchanger (Giotto, Oscar) or double boiler type machine this is really not an issue.

So there you have it - choose well, and you will be making great shots in an hour, brilliant shots in a day. I mentioned in an earlier post that we had a Jura super-auto machine in our house for a year or so, just across the kitchen from our ECM Giotto...well, we hardly ever used the Jura and now it's in my wife's office. Making shots and steaming milk with the Giotto is so mechanical and second nature now, we can do it in our sleep (and often do ). OTOH the Jura was great when we had guests over and we didn't want to fuss with the Giotto. And it does make very good coffee, no doubt... The espresso from the Jura is delicious, milder than from the Giotto, but still very good.

As for style, granted, some higher end machines do look like they belong in a "wanky espresso bar", but some are very understated and look very minimalist industrial. Check out the Rancilio Sylvia, and you'll see what I mean. Personal taste to be sure...

Durability-wise, the semi-pro machines will easily last 20 years or more. Our Giotto is 12 years old and will easily go another 12. Super-autos will probably go 10 years (this according to our shop, who sells both). Maintenance costs of the super-autos is also higher. OTOH, cleaning and upkeep of the semi-autos is a PITA...descaling, head back-flushing...not fun, and can lead to a bunged up machine if you put it off (like I do sometimes...). That's where the super-autos are brilliant, they make it idiot proof and easy....no excuse not to do it.

Anyway, I hope this helps take some of the mystique out of the semi-pro machines. There are great machines to be had in both types. Hope you find one that works for You and enjoy it!

Best,
Svend

Edit: in re-reading the above, it may give the impression that I'm trying to nudge you toward the semi-pro, semi-auto machines and grinders. Not at all! My point is simply that you shouldn't be put off by any perceived difficulty in getting good results or inconvenience in their use. Once you twig it, it's so easy a child could do it. Get the fundamentals right from the beginning, and the results will be great. That said, some of the super-autos are excellent machines too. The trick is finding a good one that's well made, durable and makes good coffee and has good steaming power. If one of these better suits your lifestyle and would get used more than the other, then you will love it. Hey, anything beats a pod machine...or Starbs

[Marco]

Hi Svend,

First of all, thanks for taking the time to write all of the above and impart your knowledge and experience with espresso machines, which is much appreciated and will most certainly be considered

Perhaps I've misread some of your posts, but it seems you may find the idea of a semi-auto machine with separate grinder, tamper, etc., a bit daunting.

Lol... Quite understandably, you don't know me. Let me assure you that's definitely not the case. If I consider something is worthwhile, I'll go to inordinate lengths to achieve it, and am not the type to be easily put off something that I'm determined to do.

That said, I'm also wary of the novelty factor wearing off something that takes not inconsiderable effort to achieve, and an expensive item eventually lying largely redundant because the fun has gone out of using one's 'new toy', which is where an auto machine has distinct advantages, as once your preferences have been set, at a touch of a button you've got what you want, with minimal effort - and with the right machine, 95% as good as delivered by a 'Barista Special'.

So I guess it depends on how much you want that last 5%....

This exercise is simply about deriving pleasure from what I'm into most: drinking great tasting coffee, how I like it, with utterly consistent results and minimal faff (that bit is very important), experimenting with different types of coffee beans, and getting to know what I like the flavour of most.

Therefore, it's the end result that's of more interest to me, than the actual process involved in getting there! That's what folks here should bear in mind.

Also, how the machine which best delivers that looks, and what it's made from, is of minor importance, as long as its solidly constructed, intuitive to use, trouble/bug-free and reliable. The other key thing too, is that the whole shebang must have a relatively small footprint, as we have limited worktop space available in our kitchen to house it, especially in terms of height (as it'll be going underneath some kitchen units), so whichever machine I get has to be pretty compact.

We'll see what I end up with. Nothing will be done until next year, as with Christmas coming up, we have other more important priorities. Anyway, thanks again for your kind advice

Marco.

[Svend N]

Hi Marco,
Thanks for the insight. I didn't think anyone who's as into HiFi as the gang here would ever be daunted by making a simple cup of coffee, but one never knows...? As for faffing about, yes there's a learning curve to using a semi-auto machine, getting the grind and tamp right, etc., but once you've got it dialled it's really no more fuss than using a super-auto. That learning curve is a couple of days, which is nothing compared to decades of good brew to follow. Child's play... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsbZjFBKmUQ

As for the "last 5%", well, I have limited experience with super-auto machines (Jura, Gaggia, Saeco, De Longhi), and I have never had an espresso from one that comes close in flavour intensity to what a good semi-pro machine can do. Perhaps going to a good shop that can make you some shots in both types of machine would be very illuminating. That said, I think the espresso that super-autos are capable of is still delicious...just milder is all, but still very tasty. The poorer machines, OTOH, make coffee that is no better or even worse than what a stove-top moka pot will do. (BTW, moka pot coffee is something special - we still make it, tastes great, and the Bialetti is so iconic...every kitchen should have one )

To be honest though, the farting around that I hate with the semi-pro machines is the cleaning. I spent hours yesterday descaling the Giotto and back-flushing the head. My fault, partly, as I'm always busy with work and keep procrastinating on this job. Good weather outside and a free couple of hours?...I'm out in the woods on my bike or doing something fun with my family, not fussing with cleaning the machine. A super-auto would be great in this regard -- just drop a tab in and push a button.

Enjoy the hunt! I'm sure you'll post back as to what you decide on.

Cheers,
Svend

[struth]

ive never cleaned inside mine in 10 years. it still works as it did.maybe better lol of course u dont get limescale here so thats a help

[Svend N]

Lucky you, Grant . We get plenty of limescale here. I recently fixed a friend's machine whose pump had stopped working because it was so clogged with lime deposits. Needed a new pump. She's now cleaning it regularly... I can tell when ours is starting to get bunged up, as the pump starts getting loud. I suspect the lime may also be responsible for the pressurestat in the Giotto going wonky every 6 to 12 months, but them I hear that's a common complaint from other semi-auto machine owners, not just Giottos. It must be the most miserably designed piece of equipment in a high end domestic appliance ever -- imagine the power regulator in a $3000 amplifier failing every six months? I'm seriously looking at a PID for the machine, even though temp control is fine, just for better reliability.

Cheers,
Svend

[CageyH]

My Espro tamper has turned up.
I have put it to use already, and have to say I was potentially tamping lighter than with the Espro.

I had a friend round last night who is a coffee fan, so we had a quick espresso, which he seemed to really enjoy.
Today I have moved on to Costa Rican beans, of a lighter roast. The first shot will be tomorrow morning.