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Thread: T/T Drive Systems - various conundrums and conclusions

  1. #1
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

    Default T/T Drive Systems - various conundrums and conclusions

    In a discussion with Mike (Shian7) recently on the SL-1210 thread he mentioned that Roy Gregory was going somewhat 'ape' over the £12k direct-drive Grand Prix Monaco turntable in Hi-Fi+. Intrigued, I obtained a copy; and what I read put a huge smile on my face because as I was reading it what he was describing was almost an exact facsimile of my feelings on the performance of the KAB-modified Technics SL-1210 (and original SP10) which are available at a mere fraction of the price! It confirms what I've thought all along that direct-drive, done well, is unquestionably a superior drive system solution to going the low or medium-mass belt-drive route. And getting the all-important issue of highly accurate speed stability right with a belt-drive T/T takes high-mass construction to ridiculous levels and a serious amount of required expenditure. The SP10 and SL-1210 in my opinion solve the issue far more elegantly via the use of their near-flawless direct-drive mechanisms.

    Allow me to elucidate further on the importance of accurate speed stability with a turntable... Roy Gregory wrote:

    I'm afraid that given the essential dichotomy at the heart of turntable design. A stretchy belt isn't exactly a high-tech response. The problem facing any turntable designer is to create a player that resolves at accurate stable speed and does so quietly (meaning, without excessive mechanical vibration). The trouble is that accurate, stable speed control demands a close-coupled drive system and the motor just happens to be the biggest single source of vibration in the unit.

    Hence the use of belt-drive, which doesn't just decouple the motor noise, it also helps solve the far thornier issue of real-time variations in speed, through the twin devices of elasticity and slippage. So, far from subtle changes in motor speed are evened out by the belt into less jagged and intrusive variations. Like I said it may not be sophisticated, but it is surprisingly effective. So much so that it drove off [with the help of the ferocity and misguided principles of the Linn marketing machine of the 70s - Marco] the commercial threat of direct-drive with comparative ease, despite the latter's clear theoretical benefits.

    You see, even if you coupled a decent, quiet, direct-drive motor to a well-engineered bearing (which actually isn't that difficult) the Achilles heel was the speed control system, which used servos to hunt the correct speed. The end result was arguably a platter that turned constantly too fast or too slow, but most damaging of all, was constantly changing speed, a subtle distortion the ear detected all too readily. The advantage of a belt drive is that those fluctuations in speed are far more gradual and thus less intrusive.
    Now what Mr Gregory fails to mention is that the "hunting" effect described above only applied to the cheap direct-drive turntables of the day which were deeply flawed, the result of which was that they gave the 'side' a bad name, and along with the Linn marketing machine at the time that was telling everyone who was willing to listen (and those who were not were simply made to listen anyway!) that the LP12 was the best thing since sliced bread and unquestionably the 'de-facto' turntable of choice. Direct-drive T/Ts, despite when done well being technically superior, were pitched to audiophiles as 'inferior' and simply 'cheap Jap crap'. Consequently, they were relegated to 'low-fi' use in mass-produced midi-systems of the day.

    This was indeed a sad state of affairs but undeniably true. It just shows how easily people will believe in a concept if it is marketed cleverly and successfully enough! Unfortunately because of this misinformation the feeling that direct-drive is inferior still exisits amongst many audiophiles today, and the reputation of the excellent SL-1210 is further marred because DJs have adopted it for use because of the high torque (and thus quick start-up time) of the direct-drive motor and the deck's rugged construction, but it was of course never originally designed for the purpose of 'DJ-ing'. Ironically, though, the SL-1210's use as a 'DJ deck' is what has enabled the unit to remain in production today. It was of course originally made as a cost-no-object (to Matsushita Electric) audiophile turntable, which National Panasonic (Technics) are able to sell today at ridiculously low cost due to economies of scale and the 'refined down to a fine art' nature of their mass production techniques.

    However, in order to solve the inherent problems of other direct-drive systems on the market at the time, Technics introduced a D/D mechanism with Quartz movement using linear frequency generators, as opposed to the somewhat flawed position-updating systems used by the cheaper direct-drive turntables of the day, which suffered from none of the issues of "hunting" as referred to earlier, and delivered near-perfect accuracy and W&F results of 0.025% - almost identical to that of the Grand Prix Audio Monaco, which achieves 0.002%. It is precisely this mechanism that is used in the SL-1210 today, and the fundamental reason why its audio performance (after minor weaknesses in some ancillary parts have been addressed) is so astonishingly good.

    Mr Gregory may have omitted to mention this fact because of copy restrictions but perhaps it was also because he didn't wish to advertise the fact that the sort of performance which is delivered by the G.P.A Monaco is also available at a frankly ridiculously low price (when judiciously modified by the likes of KAB) from a company with a far less desirable audiophile badge, i.e. Technics?

    Your thoughts please on this, gentlemen, and on where you stand on the thorny issue of belt-drive (and idler drive) versus direct-drive?

    There are numerous other issues Mr Gregory raises in his article which I would like to discuss, and which I feel rather succinctly summarise my own thoughts on the superiority of direct-drive (done well) but before getting to that I would like to deal with issues concerning my question above.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & regulator mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat with Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight. Isonoe feet & boots. Ortofon RS-212D tonearm with Denon DL-103GL in a Denon PCL-300 headshell, fitted with Funk Firm Houdini and Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp and Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp, fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.

  2. #2
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,938
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    Does anyone think it would be a good idea to send Roy Gregory a link to this discussion?

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & regulator mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat with Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight. Isonoe feet & boots. Ortofon RS-212D tonearm with Denon DL-103GL in a Denon PCL-300 headshell, fitted with Funk Firm Houdini and Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp and Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp, fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.

  3. #3
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: A Strangely Isolated Place in Suffolk with Far Away Trains Passing By...

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    I'm David.

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    Marco, what an excellent post and observation...

    Leave Mr Gregory to his grandeur... No-one in the UK is going to buy a mega thousand pound direct drive (well, one or two maybe) - the conditioning towards belt or cord drives is too strong. Actually, does anyone in the UK buy very expensive gear at all these days??????? The tiny circulation in some "top end" mags must say something.

    Right! Ivor himself told me once he'd have used direct drive had the LP12 been developed a few years later. True!

    In the early days, the plinths of many direct drive decks were flimsy and highly resonant. You could all but play tunes on the Technics SL110 I had and the SL120 was as bad, although the original SL150 was much better for some reason. The mid seventies saw Technics using a sprung sub-chassis on their integrated models and Trio introduced a solid plinth made from a resin loaded granite chip material. These sounded really good (and still do I understand) and there were numerous others that worked well too. However the LP12 swept all aside and the fervour with which people like me raved about it all but swamped the enthusiast market back then.

    It's interesting that now the LP12 is sounding cleaner, how much more like some of these better behaved old decks it sounds. Don't forget the overpriced but venerable Garrard 301's and 401's, along with the other idler greats like Lencos and TD124's etc..

    For those of us impoverished LP lovers, I'd recommend a non "clubbed to death" SL1200 series deck (lightly tweaked). Even the supplied arm has good bearings and will take a surprisingly wide range of good cartridges. I still use a Dual 701 direct drive I paid £50 for many years ago and it works and sounds fine with better mm carts. It even puts the arm on at the beginning of side and takes it off and returns it at the end - what decadence
    Last edited by DSJR; 07-05-2008 at 15:34.

  4. #4
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: South West England

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    I'm Guy.

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    The Dual 701 used the Papst motor that ended up in here.



    Goldmund Studio. Ahead of its time (in many ways) and, in the early 80's, already showing up the shortcomings of the Vilchur design approach for those not brainwashed by the nonsense from Scotland.

    I think the problem for RG was that he hadn't seriously listened to a well sorted DD before hearing the Monaco. The price of the Monaco probably just reflects the R&D necessary to do what it does, R&D that was similarly undertaken by the large Japanese corporations in the late 70's and early 80's.

    I actually think that the better, non suspended, high mass, belt/thread driven decks (Micro Seiki, Brinkmann etc) can perhaps match the stability and power of a good DD design but to me they simply aren't as elegant a solution.

  5. #5
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    Guy,

    Not forgetting the MASSIVE difference in cost, too, between those decks and a modified SL-1210 or second-hand SP10! Or the '0-60 in half a day' start-up speed

    However I agree in general with your sentiments. I love both those T/Ts, and would also chuck the Platine Verdier into the mix. Not literally, of course, as it is somewhat heavy


    The price of the Monaco probably just reflects the R&D necessary to do what it does, R&D that was similarly undertaken by the large Japanese corporations in the late 70's and early 80's.
    100% spot on; which proves that the £12k asking price is not, erm, solely courtesy of its performance!

    DSJR,

    Leave Mr Gregory to his grandeur... No-one in the UK is going to buy a mega thousand pound direct drive (well, one or two maybe) - the conditioning towards belt or cord drives is too strong.
    It is indeed and I would dearly love to do something to lessen the conditioning because people are losing out on superior reproduction of their vinyl collections as a result.

    A fully modified SL1210 (like mine) needs to be supplied to and critically reviewed in one of the hi-fi magazines to give it greater exposure to the hi-fi buying public. At the moment it's only a niche product appreciated by those 'in the know'. I would like this situation to change.

    Hi-fi World would be my preferred choice, by someone like Adam Smith. Both he and David Price are aficionados of the SL-1210 and of the direct-drive approach, but neither, as far as I'm aware, have heard a fully modified one. The closest I think has been the modified SL-1210 DP reviewed last year which was fitted with an Audio-Origami modified RB250 and a Lyra Dorian, and also an SDS Isoplatmat.

    The addition of the external KAB PS-1200 PSU, strobe disabler, Isonoe support feet, and a Funk Firm Achromat (on top of the Isoplatmat) pushes its performance envelope further and into the upper echelons of the high-end turntable arena.

    Personally, I prefer going down the route of modifying the existing arm by upgrading the poor quality internal wiring with Cardas Golden Section Strand tonearm cable, and fluid-damping the arm, upgrading the existing counterweight balance to one of soild brass, and the existing headshell to either a good quality magnesium one (such as the Audio Technica MG-10) or what I use, a ZU-Zupreme metal alloy headshell, using high quality Cardas or Clearaudio headshell leads with PCC E cartridge clips.

    The bearings on the stock arm are extremely good and the arm itself has been engineered to a pretty high standard. Thus modified it is, in my opinion (and experience) superior to any standard Rega arm (save *perhaps* the RB1000) or the SME M2, and Hadcock GH242 Integra - all of which I have used in the past. It is a complete and utter fallacy that the stock Technics arm is of 'dire quality'.

    It's high time the people buying LP12s, Regas, Pro-Jects, and a whole host of other so-so (in comparison), and in some cases expensive, belt-drive T/Ts, discovered what they are missing and got the opportunity to appreciate the magic of an SP10 or a fully modified SL-1210.

    But the question I would like to ask is this: are the benefits of a fully modified SL-1210 being kept a secret in purpose by the hi-fi media in order not to affect sales of popular belt-drive T/Ts and therefore upset some influential turntable manufacturers? Mmm...

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & regulator mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat with Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight. Isonoe feet & boots. Ortofon RS-212D tonearm with Denon DL-103GL in a Denon PCL-300 headshell, fitted with Funk Firm Houdini and Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp and Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp, fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.

  6. #6
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: South West England

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    I'm Guy.

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    I'm not sure who those 'influential' TT manufacturers might be nowadays. Pro-Ject maybe? Rega? Thorens even? They (and Technics) are perhaps the only ones still selling better quality turntables here in any quantity at all.

    I think its more an issue of the reviewers simply not being aware of the potential of a device like the 1210. (HiFi World to their credit have at least done something with it.)
    A fully loaded KAB turntable has to be imported by an individual. There's no margin in trying to distribute it here and therefore no economic imperative for anyone to get it reviewed. I suspect that someone in the UK could possibly market a similar package of mods to get the best from it and if that happened it might then get more attention.

    Sadly, I don't think there's a wilful conspiracy of silence although there is probably a 'status quo' that doubtless some would prefer to remain undisturbed

  7. #7
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Guy,

    I agree with what you've written, particularly this bit:

    ...although there is probably a 'status quo' that doubtless some would prefer to remain undisturbed
    I think that's very true, and I would like to do as much as I can to 'disturb' it

    What annoys me, primarily, is the amount of sheer twaddle written by some people (particularly on forums) about the SL-1210 and it being 'totally inferior' to things like a Rega P5 or a Michell Gyrodec when nothing could be further from the truth, and others who misconstrue information (such as ALL direct-drives "hunt" for the correct speed, etc) to protect their own insecurities and make themselves feel better about what they own, which will normally be some type of belt-drive T/T!

    Some of them have never even heard a decent SL-1210. I've even read this type of crap, believe it or not, from certain dealers! Why? I think there are some pretty insecure people out there who need to somehow justify their purchases, and certain unscrupulous dealers who will quite happily mislead people to protect their own interests... This misinformation needs to be exposed to allow people who may not know the truth a better chance of making an informed decision.

    Anyway tomorrow I will tackle, with reference again to Mr Gregory's article on the Grand Prix Monaco T/T, how the inaccurate speed stability of most belt-drive T/Ts impacts on music played, and how in contrast the almost perfect speed stability of a properly designed direct-drive mechanism gives vinyl the unerring security and pitch accuracy of CD, plus comments on a few more things, too

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & regulator mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat with Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight. Isonoe feet & boots. Ortofon RS-212D tonearm with Denon DL-103GL in a Denon PCL-300 headshell, fitted with Funk Firm Houdini and Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp and Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp, fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.

  8. #8
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Cricklewood

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    I'm ILOB.

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    I never heard a really decent direct drive turntable but seems a really good cost effective way in achieving great sounds. I have heard a Lenco with a slatedeck and hope to hear a 401 with a slatedeck in a few weeks time. The lenco was pretty good, nice mid.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Apr 2008

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    I'm Andy.

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    Over the years I have had a few different decks, I currently own the Feickert Twin but have listened to and owned many others and some of the most memorable have been the ‘older’ and DD turntables. I use to own a 401 in a Cain & Cain plinth and it was absolutely brilliant with a Syrinx tonearm, I have lived with a Lenco in a custom multi-laminated plinth and the Lenco in an OTT Slate and Granite laminated plinth or was it a ‘constrained layer’ construction?, both of which gave the most fantastic sound and depth and clarity of bass along with shear musicality that is hard to beat, was on a par with the best I’ve heard. Though the one deck I would still consider owning as a second source would have to be the big top of range Denon DD turntable (not sure of the model), the mega bucks one. A mate of mine used one for years and then sold it without telling me, a guy in the USA paid serious money for it, it had a Graham arm on it, the sound again was up with the best and certainly better than a lot of current offerings around.
    So what this means – to me at least – is never dismiss anything on an age basis (being old doesn’t make it a has been- that's no reference to me either) you never know what you are missing out on.

    Andy - SDDW

  10. #10
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: South West England

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    I'm Guy.

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    Denon DP100M

    http://www.thevintageknob.org/DENON/DP100M/DP100M.html

    Could've bought one of these a few years ago in Holland for about £240. Sadly I had no easy means of getting it home

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