What does Flat earth mean to you?

[alfie2902]

Good kit can measure well but kit that measures well doesn't necessarily sound good.

Neil, if we go all-embracing we end up losing the identity we had from the beginning and we'll become a platform for people to advocate choosing their hi-fi because it measures well, got a good review in HFN, because the local emporium stocks it or because of marketing slogans like" You're nobody without a ...."

Good Jap-fi didn't see the light of day in UK high end dealerships because the reps from you-know-who bullied dealers into only stocking their gear. There was perhaps even a conspiracy to bury DD turntables because they were more musical all along.

And 'you know who' was instrumental in the 'Flat Earth' movement! and has alot to answer for IMO.

The forum shouldn't drop its stance & Identity, No way! but I don't think for one that re-defining 'Flat Earth' to 'New Flat Earth' is needed or helpful in any way! IMO YMMV etc etc

[Spectral Morn]

Now, that's an original definition ! I like it !

Hi Dimitri

Glad you like it PMRIE.



Regards D S D L

[Steve Toy]

The blame does not lie with the "flat earth movement" but with a couple of manufacturers ruthlessly furthering their commercial interests using gangster-like tactics.
There is nothing "new" about the flat earth principles advocated here. It's all pretty old stuff.
Unfortunately I couldn't get the PFM search engine to go back more than a year.

I think it is possible to capture the essence of flat earth-ness without reviving the mafia mentality that spoiled and corrupted the very noble principle of choosing kit that makes recorded music sound more involving and enjoyable.
If we try to coin another term or attach "new" to it that essence is lost.

It can also be fun discovering kit that beats Linn/Naim at their own game using their selection criteria!

[DSJR]

As above.

Now "we" seem to have a better understanding which distortions are acceptable to our ears and which aren't (something the run of the mill desigbers of the 70's either ignored or didn't understand for various reasons), there is a wealth of technically sound audio gear out there that SOUNDS good too. I'd also say that decent vintage stuff (AKA Marco's Tannoys and much well loved valve and turntable equipment) has never sounded better with some sensitive modern-day thinking behind it.

As far as AOS is concerned, I think we have a pretty fair sprinkling of all "disciplines" here, from valve-n-vinyl, to CD and digital streaming and I also think that a fair number of us use ALL the technologies to "do the job" of getting music in their lives. I love handling and messing about with turntables still, yet I still play my CD player (when it's not putting rifle-shots into the amp/speakers) and enjoy the Quad FM3 as well (the Delta 80 is better, but I like the Quad.....).

Surely we're too grown up on here to pidgeon-hole people into "camps."

P.S. I've many less than favourable memories of a sales director I knew who was vociferous with his criticisms of the rest of us who didn't always like his favourite SSSSSSSSBEEEEEEEELLLLLL'ssssssssssssssssss. We were deaf, ignorant and downright second-class in his eyes. Apparently, twenty five years on, his "attitude" hasn't changed overmuch, so I'm told. A shame really, as he's quite a bright individual as I recall, but drenched in his rigid belief system.

[Marco]

Hi Dimitri,

I'm not so sure... I'm even sure they sound perfectly well as they are, with a good MM cartridge.

I guess that depends on what is meant by "sound perfectly well". They certainly do "sound perfectly well" as standard. However, mine definitely sounds rather more "perfectly well" with the modifications Steve has outlined installed - indeed the sonic performance it offers is 'night and day' compared to that of a standard model.

So much then for measurements alone being in any way definitive...

The fact is they only give you half of the story, mon ami! As Steve correctly says:

Good kit can measure well but kit that measures well doesn't necessarily sound good.

...Or at least "good" by our discerning standards.

Hi Dave,

A shame really, as he's quite a bright individual as I recall, but drenched in his rigid belief system.

We like to confront and 'loosen' a few of those on AoS, then neutralise the dogma

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Dave, I've never heard SBLs sound anything other than awful.
The dealer at the time tried to convince me otherwise but the lack of bass and spitty top end just got in the way of everything else they were supposed to do. Allaes that followed at that price point were much better.

[Joe]

...Or at least "good" by our discerning standards.

But if person A dislikes something that person B thinks sounds 'good', then person A's opinion is as valid as person B's. Isn't that what subjectivity is all about?

[Marco]

Hi Joe,

Which was the marketing theme favoured by flat earthers!

If you go with flat earth you'll confuse people who don't know what the term means and alienate (a) those who understand it to mean anti-science and (b) those who think it means Linn/Naim-based intolerance. If you need to write screeds to explain what you mean by 'flat earth' that sort of defeats the object. Just use 'subjectivist: if it sounds good, it is good'.

We are a subjective-minded forum; that will never change. However, we're also entitled to encourage/invite people to think laterally - there's that term again which some seem to be conveniently ignoring! - about the concept of the term 'flat-earth' (or indeed any other subject we might bring up for discussion).

The poll seems to suggest this is working.... Therefore, job done, so far

Would everyone please pay attention to this:

We're not forcing anyone to change their mind; merely inviting people to challenge their (possible) preconceptions. I trust that everyone can appreciate the difference?

Thinking 'outside of the box' is something we value on AoS, thus we will always encourage our members to consider the concept. We enjoy debates which take people out of their comfort zone, and raising controversial topics of discussion, because that's often when ideas are developed and new discoveries made.

I can't be any clearer than that so (to everyone) let's not waste any more bandwidth on making me repeat this again. Please either accept what is being proposed or not. It's entirely your choice. If it's the latter, I'd be obliged if you bowed gracefully out of the discussion, otherwise all we're doing is going round in circles.

Cheers!

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Poll results so far indicate that only a minority have difficulty understanding the concept I also think that one or two folks are being deliberately obtuse on this by refusing to acknowledge the irony behind the adoptation of such a disparaging term historically and the negative association with corruption in the hi-fi industry.

[Joe]

Poll results so far indicate that only a minority have difficulty understanding the concept I also think that one or two folks are being deliberately obtuse on this by refusing to acknowledge the irony behind the adoptation of such a disparaging term historically and the negative association with corruption in the hi-fi industry.

Right, I'm out of here.