Ashley & JC's assorted musings

[Steve Toy]

Enough is enough

I'm really not into being forced to choose who I want to post on this forum but I will state that I also heard ADM9s at the Bristol Show. I was not impressed - to the point that I spent more time listening to Ashley's excuses for the high noise floor (noise outside the room) than I possibly could at his, er, system. Yes it could go loud but then so can one of those midi systems with plastic speakers on steroids and a box of tricks with flashing lights and equalisation, somewhere within which there's an amp chucking out, and I mean chucking, 200 wpc PMPO.

It was possibly the "future of audio" [shudder] and a good fit-and-forget solution for "professionals" with little time to spend selecting a music programme never mind actually sitting down to listen to the music. These same targeted professionals with long working hours that almost justify their 6-figure salaries could not tell the difference between a £200 Denon CD player and a £12,000 Esoteric. Convenience really is the key for these guys over actual quality of music reproduction.

Ashhley has even tried to suggest that there really is no difference between the two aforementioned CD players and his position is backed up by his old-boy side kick from Birmingham. This is not a point worth arguing as anyone with an ear for music devoid of a particular marketing agenda will know is complete and utter bullshit.

The Art of Sound is a forum for discerning folks with good (musical) ears. We've given the Ashley/Brum axis two shots now at contributing constructively and positively to this forum and both times they've been successful only in tainting the place with their political propaganda devoid of any real merit and substance. Like all seasoned and rather cynical politicians they've been very good at ducking, diving and avoiding answering some difficult questions.

Their asset-to-liability ratio really does tip heavily towards liability. For a while I thought they served as fitting punchbags in debates and were, to my amusement, rather out of their depth and clutching at straws, but as admin I'm no slut for traffic volumes for their own sake especially where quality of discussion suffers as a result.

They are not banned but I'll be quite relieved to see them (they come as a matched pair like KT88s) take some form of sabbatical from this forum. The whole AVI marketing style of spending hours on hours polluting just about every forum (this, HFC, PFM, need I go on... that will have them) rings lots of alarm bells in my head and from a purely marketing POV I see them putting a lot of potential customers off. As my wife told me tonight, someone once shoved rhubarb down her throat when she was a child. She's not eaten it ever since.

Why else would they not want to allow their potential customers from being encouraged to hear their product before they actually part with their money?

Answer - the product itself with the BS removed is not particularly inspiring, to my ears at least. I'm one of a few who have actually heard them and only bullshit can convince the gullible high-flyers of this world that they are worth more than an upgrade for the little speakers that sit either side of your PC monitor.

We've wasted far too much time on providing a futile platform for them to dominate and hopefully peddle their wares on our discerning folks here who will always know better.

Now chaps, back to the programme, whatever it was.

Richard, I'm glad you are back, but please keep a cool head. Ta.

[Filterlab]

The speakers in that soffit install are not Tannoy Dreadnought, but JBL 4350 Studio Monitors.

I am mistaken.

They look very similar though.

[Filterlab]

Good post Steve, and I agree wholeheartedly. It's happened on this forum and others from what I've read and that's not really the point of a forum.

But....

...into being forced... I'm no slut... in my head... POV.... shoved rhubarb down her throat... cool head...

You've been watching way too much porn mate.

[Marco]

LOL. Fair enough, Steve. This is exactly why we have three people in our admin team!

I've not heard ADM9s, so I'll reserve final judgement until I have. But given Greg's damning appraisal and yours, not to mention what I've heard from other people whose ears I trust; it's not looking good for the little AVI boxes...

I will move all the 'off-topic' stuff here to a thread of its own. I'm on it now

Marco.

[Ashley James]

Greg is talking through his hat and if he understood the theory, he'd not have made such daft comments.

Theory: Stereo image width is dictated by drive unit dispersion characteristics, but primarily diameter and the phase coherence between tweeter and bass driver and the two speakers. Phase accuracy of ADM9's is within 1 degree between drive units and a pair of speakers so there's nothing made that's better.

Image depth is down to system signal to noise and guess what: Active is better than passive.

Now we all know that listening tell you so much more than us, so chase through postings on Wigwam and you'll find one chap who report they're sounding bigger and wider than their size, which is what you'd expect, but there are those like Greg announcing it's not possible from a small speaker. But it is more possible from a small speaker than a big one.

Steve did come and see us at Bristol and he not only assured us that Naim's new mains cable made as big a difference as going active, but also that if he had £80K to spend it'd be on Naim. They of course are known for "the Naim sound" and if you like that you're not going to like a proper representation of the recording.

One thing that really pisses me off is the constant assertion that you are the connoisseurs of good sound quality not us! The truth is that you're on the fringe and using mostly equipment that cannot compete with the best modern electronics. You are enjoying yourselves and you love what you do, and I wouldn't be so critical if you weren't so insulting of ADM9s. They will be more accurate whether any of you like the sound or not.

One of our customers is Misha Scorer and another is Geoffrey Burgon, why don't you look the up so you can rubbish their ears as well.

As for wittering on about marketing when none of you seem to know what that entails!
The first thing I do is identify a target group. This is a group most likely to want what I'm trying to sell, then I find a way of taking the message to them. I've done that and it's working. I'm bloody busy.

Now how do you think anyone on this or PF stack up as a target group? Or put another way - Can you think of any group less likely to buy? Because I'm buggered if I can.

The fact is that most of the arguments against ADM9's are nothing more than prejudice and mostly from people who simply don't understand the theory well enough to realise they are talking utter crap. No one can believe the evidence of their ears if they have the attitude displayed by some on message boards.

I'm happy to bugger off but don't think you can spurt insults and not get a proper and considered defence for a properly designed product.

[WikiBoy]

Greg is talking through his hat and if he understood the theory, he'd not have made such daft comments.

Theory: Stereo image width is dictated by drive unit dispersion characteristics, but primarily diameter and the phase coherence between tweeter and bass driver and the two speakers. Phase accuracy of ADM9's is within 1 degree between drive units and a pair of speakers so there's nothing made that's better.

Image depth is down to system signal to noise and guess what: Active is better than passive.

Now we all know that listening tell you so much more than us, so chase through postings on Wigwam and you'll find one chap who report they're sounding bigger and wider than their size, which is what you'd expect, but there are those like Greg announcing it's not possible from a small speaker. But it is more possible from a small speaker than a big one.

Steve did come and see us at Bristol and he not only assured us that Naim's new mains cable made as big a difference as going active, but also that if he had £80K to spend it'd be on Naim. They of course are known for "the Naim sound" and if you like that you're not going to like a proper representation of the recording.

One thing that really pisses me off is the constant assertion that you are the connoisseurs of good sound quality not us! The truth is that you're on the fringe and using mostly equipment that cannot compete with the best modern electronics. You are enjoying yourselves and you love what you do, and I wouldn't be so critical if you weren't so insulting of ADM9s. They will be more accurate whether any of you like the sound or not.

One of our customers is Misha Scorer and another is Geoffrey Burgon, why don't you look the up so you can rubbish their ears as well.

As for wittering on about marketing when none of you seem to know what that entails!
The first thing I do is identify a target group. This is a group most likely to want what I'm trying to sell, then I find a way of taking the message to them. I've done that and it's working. I'm bloody busy.

Now how do you think anyone on this or PF stack up as a target group? Or put another way - Can you think of any group less likely to buy? Because I'm buggered if I can.

The fact is that most of the arguments against ADM9's are nothing more than prejudice and mostly from people who simply don't understand the theory well enough to realise they are talking utter crap. No one can believe the evidence of their ears if they have the attitude displayed by some on message boards.

I'm happy to bugger off but don't think you can spurt insults and not get a proper and considered defence for a properly designed product.

Rhubarb!

And what is the best thing for good Rhubarb - horse shit!

And once again you dump copious quantities of it on this thread.

Please tell me what this post has to do with retailers in the current economic climate?

Ah good just as I go back in to read it I see it has been moved to your own personal horse shit thread, well done admin.

[Marco]

Richard,

I've sorted your thread out. It's now completely separate. This is Ashley and JC's 'play area' (and that of anyone else who'd like to contribute).

I've asked you a question there, too

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

One of our customers is Misha Scorer and another is Geoffrey Burgon

There's nothing like a bit of name dropping whoever they are.

I was impressed with the Naim set-up I heard, I usually am for what it does. However, spending 80k is hard to justify when I can probably get something I like even more for (much) less money.

I do know that musicians tend to fall into two distinct objectivist/subjectivist camps where hi-fi is concerned; the former opt for the best and most musical system they can afford and the latter regard all hi-fi as a mere facsimile of the real thing and therefore buy the cheapest one that measures well.

[Marco]

One thing that really pisses me off is the constant assertion that you are the connoisseurs of good sound quality not us! The truth is that you're on the fringe and using mostly equipment that cannot compete with the best modern electronics. You are enjoying yourselves and you love what you do, and I wouldn't be so critical if you weren't so insulting of ADM9s. They will be more accurate whether any of you like the sound or not.

The "truth" based on what, Ashley? And which examples of "modern electronics" are you referring to other than of course your own?

'Accuracy' is meaningless in hi-fi. All hi-fi equipment distorts the signal to some degree, including yours, so why is the AVI brand of distortion better than any other manufacturer's?

In reality, all any of us are doing is choosing our own compromises/distortions and building a system around them that we personally find musically satisfying. That's all we can do because there is no 'perfect' system - it isn't ADM9s, or any other AVI product, and it isn't anything else either.

Marco.

[Ashley James]

They create astounding product that points an arrow to the future due to non commercial motivation causing lateral thinking.

Richard we're a small manufacturer, not as small as you, but with all the difficulties of establishing a business in a dying market, we both started as hobbyists and we've thought laterally and produced a product that rips the carpet out from under the present Cartel (albeit it an unintended cartel), so why is what we've done wrong and what you're suggesting right. Have we been too successful or something - perhaps you could explain.

Ash

PS. we've even reduced dealer margins so the customer gets better value for money. We've reduced overheads by subbing virtually everything and we've bought in quantity to keep costs down. We've done everything for the benefit of the customer and some can't believe it isn't a cynical trick!