'Analog Dinosaur' succumbs to the joys of FBA : enter Raspberry Pi 2/IQ-Audio DAC+!!

[gary]

Careful Marco before you know it you will be buying solid state lol

[The Black Adder]

Unsurprised at the improvement with an active pre and glad you found a way to get there

I suspect an isolation transformer between the DAC output and preamp input (as was often used in the previous wave of DAC board projects) might improve things further thanks to better impedance matching, or better still an active buffer - perhaps have a go with an EE BBA or MF X10?

Unconvinced by improvements from ethernet cables though. Having spent 20 years in IT and knowing a little bit about these things ... the way data packets work over ethernet is not the same as with a co-ax cable (with checksum being required in all transmissions and no possibility of missing or altered bits that didn't also cut the music completely) I can't conceive of any possible mechanism that would make a difference to the sound (unless you are hiding a DSP chip somewhere on the cable).

I'm far from a cable ludditie - I have two silver cables (AN Vx) left in my system, a tonearm cable and a digital cable between Audio Note DAC and transport. But the technologies are different. Ethernet is not SPDIF.

+1 to that.

[The Black Adder]

Yup, I'm in no position to argue with that, but I also know what I heard (am hearing) - and what the two other people present did too, when the change was made! It certainly wouldn't be the first time in hi-fi that cable effects have flied in the face of 'accepted wisdom', and it probably won't be the last...

In any case, for a tenner, who cares? No puppies have died

Marco.

P.S Underestimate the IQ-Audio DAC at your peril. This little thing is unquestionably a veritable 'giant-killer'!

But my DAC looks ACE!... and so does the sony. lol

Are we absolutely sure that taking the Sony further in internal improvements wouldn't improve it's stance against the Pi, or better it? My DAC is so well built like your sony (except in a high end TEAC stylee). So have you looked in to any mods that would bring the dinosaur back in to the lime lite? Or is it that (late question I know) the Pi is simply a different flavor to the Sony?

lol.. I'll put a banner up on an M1 bridge later saying 'Save the DAS-R1'

I was going to write a thread about my dac... now me thinks it will be put in the bin... (the thread, that is) lol

[NRG]

.......
I suspect an isolation transformer between the DAC output and preamp input (as was often used in the previous wave of DAC board projects) might improve things further thanks to better impedance matching, or better still an active buffer - perhaps have a go with an EE BBA or MF X10?

Unconvinced by improvements from ethernet cables though. Having spent 20 years in IT and knowing a little bit about these things ... the way data packets work over ethernet is not the same as with a co-ax cable (with checksum being required in all transmissions and no possibility of missing or altered bits that didn't also cut the music completely) I can't conceive of any possible mechanism that would make a difference to the sound (unless you are hiding a DSP chip somewhere on the cable).

I'm far from a cable ludditie - I have two silver cables (AN Vx) left in my system, a tonearm cable and a digital cable between Audio Note DAC and transport. But the technologies are different. Ethernet is not SPDIF.

I agree with your view point on Ethernet cables (I'm over 30 years now in the IT/Computer industry) but folks hear what they hear. I've tried various cables but have never heard a difference, I can't see how it could affect the analogue o/p but hey, I'll keep an open mind on the Pi...until I try it for myself.

On your other points we'll have to agree to disagree, I see no reason to add a buffer other than to colour the sound or to add some sort of impedance matching if it's needed. The PCM5122 requires no o/p I/V stage or in-line capacitors or mute relays and is happy driving into a 10K load out to 153KHz. O/P voltage is 2.1RMS so enough to drive the input of the vast majority of amps. Why place more electronics in the signal path.

The MF X10 is a CF valve stage, I've built a few of these over the years, they alter the sound and tend to produce a fuller midrange but lose detail and clarity by placing more components like capacitors in the signal path. I don't know the BBA circuit but would not be surprised if it too place more gubbins where it's not wanted. Plus the cost sort of defeats what an RPi streaming solution is all about IMHO...Anyhow I'll have to wait until the end of April to find out...

[r100]

I agree with your view point on Ethernet cables (I'm over 30 years now in the IT/Computer industry).... .

Anyone ? 40 years ?

[WAD62]

Anyone ? 40 years ?

Only the 33 years for me, if I can include the degree that is...

We're not talking just IT here, the closer one moves in the chain to the actual DAC the further removed from IT one gets, and were into a murky world of physics.

My experience and suspicion is that DACs are fragile little things, and their performance can be degraded by electromagnetic 'interference', hence different connections and cabling can introduce audible differences, without affecting the bit perfect data transfer figures...but I'm only guessing as this area is out of the IT domain IMHO

[Marco]

Careful Marco before you know it you will be buying solid state lol

I'd buy *anything*, Gary, that truly was worth buying!

I don't discriminate: if something is good, it's good, no matter what technology it uses.

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Jo,

Are we absolutely sure that taking the Sony further in internal improvements wouldn't improve it's stance against the Pi, or better it?

No we're not. I'm sure that the Sony could be taken further, but that's something I've put on the back burner for now. It sounds ace as it is, and like all successful 'recipes', could easily be ruined by adding the wrong ingredient. As they say, you don't attempt to 'fix' what ain't broken...

Plus, and let me make this absolutely clear: the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC isn't better all-round than the Sony.

It it is better in some areas (notably absolute resolution, filigree-detail retrieval/high-frequency extension, rather like the sonic effect one gets with a turntable, when going from using a top-of-the-range moving magnet cartridge, to a high-end moving coil, and how that impacts on musical presentation), and not quite as good in others (notably 'muscularity' of musical delivery, i.e. overall weight and scale, dynamic alacrity, and the sheer balls-out 'size' of the sound, as the Sony portrays music with such huge scale and 'life' [IME, it is unrivalled in that particular area], which the Pi/DAC combo can't quite match - but look at the difference in price!!

However, I suspect that the addition to the Pi of a top-notch linear PSU will go some way, in that respect, towards levelling the playing field, whilst maintaining the requisite 'SPPV factor'....

Essentially, in comparison with the Sony's 'take no prisoners', hugely bold and entertaining musical presentation, the Pi/DAC combo does things more subtly, and arguably with greater finesse and refinement.

What is missing too (and this for me is crucial), is any sense whatsoever that one is listening to a digital source. It has an uncannily 'relaxed' and effortless musical presentation, together with a complete absence of the fatiguing 'glare' that has infected every other digital music source I've heard to date, so in that respect, it's like listening to a top-notch turntable, playing mint condition audiophile pressings of vinyl. The Pi/DAC combo exhibits that glorious, all-absorbing 'analogue tone' and subjective sense of 'musical correctness'.

The Sony, as good as it is, still sounds like a CD player (albeit a very good one), simply because *that* is what it is, and so no matter how sonically and musically accomplished, it can never completely shake off the shackles (playback accuracy limitations) imposed by the interface of a laser mechanism reading a disc - and as such it sounds just a tad more contrived and 'false'. That's about the best way I can describe it.

My DAC is so well built like your sony (except in a high end TEAC stylee). So have you looked in to any mods that would bring the dinosaur back in to the lime lite? Or is it that (late question I know) the Pi is simply a different flavor to the Sony?

That's it in a nutshell; in the same way as my SPU has a different 'flavour' from that of the Denon DL-S1, or which that has over the 103... You're most certainly playing with 'flavours' here, not any sense of overall sonic superiority.

I was going to write a thread about my dac... now me thinks it will be put in the bin... (the thread, that is) lol

Lol... If you really like your DAC, don't rule out the possibility of also using it in conjunction with the Pi. You just need to use the Hi-Fi Berry interface instead. For the money, you could certainly try both (Pi/Hi-Fi Berry+TEAC, vs. Pi/IQ-Audio DAC), and still end up spending less than a good night out in the town with your mates!!

I'm not really interested in going there (doing the same with the Hi-Fi Berry and my Sony), as I'm happy to have the facility of using a modern bang up-to-date, top-notch (yet cheap as chips) DAC, and its ability to allow me to play hi-res music files, beyond the capability of the Sony.

As such, I've welcomed the IQ-Audio Pi-DAC+ very warmly into my system as being, in conjunction with the RPi itself, yet another highly capable music source. Choice is good!

Marco.

[Qwin]

Marco -"...unquestionably sound significantly better than the much thinner Maplins Cat5e cable I had been using before"

The cable Gazjam recomended and you linked to is a Cat6 cable, which is built to a higher specification than Cat5e, also Cat5e is available in screened and unscreened, which may have had an effect, depending on what type your Maplins cable was.

[Marco]

Hi Ken,

Yup, that's the area where I think the difference is coming from. Once I'm satisfied that what I'm hearing is right, I'll *always* trust my ears over currently 'accepted wisdom' or that which is stated as 'unquestionably correct' in Johnny's Bible of Scientific Facts.

This is the Maplin ethernet cable I was using before: http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/cat-5e-utp...15m-grey-a27aw

The Duronic cable, recommended by Gaz, to my ears, is unquestionably and significantly sonically superior. Note that I'm not making any claims as to how 'better' it does its job, in terms of transferring the relevant data, as I don't believe that's where the improvement is coming from.

Just because you've worked and experimented for years in a particular technical field, doesn't automatically mean that you know ALL there is to know about it!

Marco.