Apple Snow Leopard.. A cheap hi-fi upgrade?

[lovejoy]

I'm not off the thread. You are suggesting there is only one valid opinion, i.e. yours and I am suggesting an alternative possibility

Nope, you're merely spouting the same hypothesis that Ashley James and his cronies spout regularly. You're not actually Ashley James are you? You are off thread, because I started it to ask other Snow Leopard users what they thought, not what the universally accepted theory is, which I've discussed ad nauseum already over the last 5 or so years. If it comes about that a number of people try it and hear no differences then I am more than satisfied that my assumptions are wrong, but as evidence is emerging that other people are hearing a difference, then I don't think I am wrong.

The "listen with your own ears" argument cuts no ice with me.

Then what are you even doing on a hi-fi forum? Or owning decent hi-fi kit? Can you actually appreciate the differences between a good and a bad rendition of a musical performance or are you happy so long as you can recognise a tune? We're all completely different in the way that we perceive sound and we all have our preferences for a certain type of sound, but I think our attitudes towards music and audio are so at opposite ends of the spectrum (and I'm not going to be so gauche as to say you are wrong and I am right) that we don't really have anything more to discuss.

It's funny how that bottle of red wine tastes better on the balcony overlooking lake Como. But it's the same wine.

Yes, but that is because your surroundings have improved, thus affecting your mood, as has the quality of the air mixing with the wine, thus affecting the taste of the wine.

[Chippy_boy]

Yes, but that is because your surroundings have improved, thus affecting your mood, as has the quality of the air mixing with the wine, thus affecting the taste of the wine.

EXACTLY my point. You don't start claiming the wine is different, do you.

It seems EVERYTHING is up for grabs for discussion in these forums, apart from the single phrase "I don't believe it".

To some, it's more like a religion - and it certainly feels like it to one like me who dares question peoples' perceptions. It's like I am spouting some kind of blasphemy.

I am sure we have much in common; we clearly both have an interest in hifi and it's ability to create a sound that comes close enough to the original to recreate the emotions you might feel when listening to the "real" thing... whatever that is.

I am very keen to hear of tips that can make things sound better. But I don't accept prima facie quite extraordinary claims without quite extraordinary evidence. And that includes *my* experiences. If I think something sounds better, then unless there's an obvious reason for it, I am very skeptical of my own ears, let alone anyone elses. Maybe you should try thinking like that just as an experiment? Just consider for one moment that perhaps your ears might be deceiving you. Or is that blasphemy? "Bloody cheek, perhaps you are thinking... I know what I hear". But do you. Really? Can you test it to see if you can reliably tell one from the other? Maybe you can. But maybe, just maybe, not.

[Beechwoods]

There are plenty of objectivist forums where measurements, analysis and 'facts' are the single source of evidence about what works best and what doesn't. Art of Sound is a subjectivist forum, and members are encouraged to trust their ears over anything else.

Chippy_boy, you would do well to read the posts over the 'Our Ethos' forum, in particular this one: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showp...24&postcount=5

I appreciate you feel strongly about your science based approach, but telling people they're fooling themselves isn't the best way to make your point

[Dave Cawley]

Art of Sound is a subjectivist forum, and members are encouraged to trust their ears over anything else.


Is that so, in which case I too misunderstood the concept of this forum. A great shame, I whish Marco had made this point much earlier!

Regards

Dave

[Beechwoods]

Check the links Dave

[Dave Cawley]

I did, and it wasn't nearly as clear cut in my mind. This will change quite a few contributors I suspect.

Dave

[Spectral Morn]

Just to allow quick reading I will quote Marco here...

I'm adding this to our Ethos as I feel that it sums up how we on AOS view the judgement of hi-fi equipment and its associated ancillaries in reference to the oft raised measurements v. 'using one's ears' debate...

We would gladly use science automatically as the benchmark to judge all things hi-fi if we felt that it provided all the answers necessary. It would certainly be much easier having an 'undisputable reference' as one's basis for judgement. But it's the grey areas that bother us.

Quite clearly, science currently can't provide all the answers in audio, certainly as far as measuring how equipment and its associated ancillaries treats music signals and ascertaining how humans process recorded musical information via our ears and brain. Therefore grey areas exist because we are not robots; when listening to music our brains aren't programmed to respond in a specific way to known audio measurement parameters - the fact is, we do not listen to music in the way scientific apparatus measures sound.

If such apparatus could measure how we as humans listen to and appreciate music then measurements would be truly meaningful and embraced wholeheartedly by music enthusiasts and audiophiles alike. That is why audio/music enthusiasts like those on AOS will always trust their ears more than any scientific measurements, because what can currently be measured just doesn't tell the whole story.

Until the day comes when measurements unequivocally provide all the answers, we will happily continue using our discerning ears which for us are infinitely more accurate and reliable in ascertaining what really matters in hi-fi (and subsequently in our enjoyment of music), especially in those all-important grey areas... It's often the small details or 'grey areas' that make the most significant difference and thus are ultimately of most significance!

Marco.

Dave why should this have the effect you suggest/hint at. Marco does not say here that measurements don't have a place in audio or AOS, but just that so far (Note the words So Far)they don't and can't explain all the things that many (not all) hear. It would be very interesting and valuable if audible effects could have a corresponding measurement and in many cases that is the position we are at but not with everything. The problem here on AOS is when those come on and post black and white comments which don't allow for what people (including me) hear. I feel pity for the black and white brigade, the world, the universe is far from a black and white place, there is much to discover and learn and an arrogant closed mind means to much is missed. If objectivism alone floats peoples boats they can post on ZG and other places to there hearts content and learn nothing. I have an open mind and yearn for the day when audible effects can be explained, however until that day comes I will trust my ears first.


Regards D S D L

[Joe]

I don't recall signing any bits of paper before joining AoS. i doubt those conditions are legally binding anyway.

[Chippy_boy]

I appreciate you feel strongly about your science based approach, but telling people they're fooling themselves isn't the best way to make your point

In all seriousness, if my point is "you're fooling yourself", how would you suggest I make that point?

I did say to the OP that the sound differences could be down to settings etc. But genuinely if both OS's are working properly and streaming an unmodified stream of bits, then a "you're fooling yourself" option surely has to be considered?

Surely we should *ALL* have open minds. This means ALSO being open to the idea that some effects maybe are just not there at all.

If that's off the agenda even for discussion, I don't know where it is to end.

Can someone come on here and say that if they call their Hampster "Norman" then their hifi sounds better, but if he's called "Gerald" then it doesn't. And we have to believe them? Come on, there has to be limit as to what's credible and you have to have the right to question things.

I read your ethos pages before I started posting and again after Marcos pointed me at them. If my posts contravene anything (and I do not believe they do) then I suggest the terms of reference for the forum should be looked at.

Surely, it's about healthy debate, where points of view can be questioned? If not, what's the point?

[leo]

Measurements are important, mainly to make sure things are ok , behaving and not suffering stability issues, noise, performing to spec etc.
The ears are the deciding thing though, no matter how great something measures doesn't guarantee your ideal sound

Some things do measure the same but don't sound it, at the end of the day its all good fun