The price is right....or is it?

[nat8808]

It's all well and good having an "open source" of information, BUT, that is an entirely selfish viewpoint and I would ask you to turn the tables to imagine that it was YOU that spent many years and every spare penny you had creating a new innovative product, only to chuck it out on the internet FOR FREE and let the vultures descend on it? I think not somehow.

I am of course coming from a different place as you say (didn't fancy a full quote in the post) - I've come entirely from the secondhand market , buying old magazines to try to work out what's out there and what was supposedly good and bad. In that context you can get so much for relatively cheap that there almost doesn't need to be an industry any more (from my way of doing things) only a servicing and upgrade industry.. Then again I'm fairly non- (sometimes even anti-) consumerist and everything electronic I use, computers, phones etc seems to be secondhand or restored or upgraded old stuff. OK, I got a 6 month old phone recently and I did buy a Blackberry Playbook cos they were discontinuing them for very cheap... otherwise..

Still, I don't see that it's anyone's particular right to earn a living in any field - you make it work or you don't! If people don't want to pay for new expensive gear because they can have a boutique manufacturer make something just as good from vintage valves etc, then that's the market and that's the competition. No subsidies for a flailing industry unless there is some kind of cultural heritage involved.

I noticed that a dealer's ebay account had clocked up £120k in sales in last month alone! Selling some DIY stuff, cables, vinyl care products.. some sub £500 good gear too, but not the mainstay of their sales. (Use www.goofbay.com ebay tools to check on seller's turnover for the last 30 days..)

The service market, upgrade market! £120k per month! OK, might be a peak time of year but still.. they've got the right idea. That could subsidise getting a good product to market, even as a deliberate tax loss. I remember a small youtube video by eBay from a seller called Good-Hifi (no longer trading) had a £1m or so annual turnover with old Leak tuners, vintage stuff.. said he could do more but didn't want to get bogged down in hiring other employees..

In other words, there's plenty of money about in the hobby but big ticket items are not looking as good value for money these days. People can ask what they want for stuff, their right, but they've no reason to expect people to go along with it. The market will speak (as free market fans will say).

[Macca]

Some good points there, Nat. I am not one of these 'the hobby is dying' moaners. That was the cry over twenty years ago if it were true there would be nothing left by now. And if the number of enthusiasts is dwindling then I would like to know who these f*ckers are who are always bidding against me on eBay There may be less brick and mortar dealers than there used to be but that was probably because that sector became over-subscribed by the end of the 'Seventies and is still being shaken out. Much like Public Houses, a lot have closed down but it is still not difficult to find one within striking distance if you need to.

Added to that the story is different in the middle and far east where they are really just getting started. Different cultures to the West but if anything they place more value on music, not less. it only takes hi-fi to become aspirational in India or China, or even Brazil and that market will dwarf by several orders of magnitude what we saw in Europe/North America 40 years ago in the 'golden age'.

[Effem]

Well a lot of us also fuel our addictions on recycling or reusing secondhand components, but that also has a finite lifespan. If NOBODY buys anything new then the source will dry up, simply because of availability and because the rarity factor will also push prices up dramatically - as we are already starting to see, with ludicrous prices being asked for items that went for less than a tenner or remained unsold only a few short years ago.

I think that people's ability to spend very much depends upon their ultimate disposable income and we have of course seen a serious erosion of that in the past few years, which may or may not ever return to their former levels. When people do have that spare cash in their pockets then they are less inclined to fret about the price tag.

[Macca]

Well a lot of us also fuel our addictions on recycling or reusing secondhand components, but that also has a finite lifespan. If NOBODY buys anything new then the source will dry up, simply because of availability and because the rarity factor will also push prices up dramatically - .

That's never going to happen. It makes no financial sense to buy a brand new car but that doesn't stop people, in fact new car sales are increasing.

[YNWaN]

My guess Nat would be a sirloin of steak. Or possibly chicken.

Quality Avatar Mr K

[Marco]

What is it exactly?

Marco.

[Marco]

I think that people's ability to spend very much depends upon their ultimate disposable income and we have of course seen a serious erosion of that in the past few years, which may or may not ever return to their former levels. When people do have that spare cash in their pockets then they are less inclined to fret about the price tag.

Having a reasonable disposable income, I buy whatever I consider is best within the price range I'm willing to pay - but regardless of how much disposable income I have, I'll always seek to obtain the highest VFM, or when it comes to hi-fi, SPPV. Even if I was a multi-millionaire, I'd still be haggling for the best cash deal I could get on any major purchase, because that's just me. It's in my DNA, so would simply go against the grain to do otherwise.

Also, whether something is new or old doesn't concern me in the slightest; what matters is how well it fulfils my requirements (i.e. it acting in a specific context as my version of 'best').

Unfortunately, when it comes to hi-fi, most vintage gear, at its best, outperforms much of what's made today, and when comparing it with today's 'high-end' equipment, often at a fraction of the price. This is especially true when upgrading the best vintage equipment with the highest quality modern electrical components, which often results in one obtaining the best of both worlds, and a system that can compete, sonically and musically, with virtually anything that's available new.

For the last 10 years or so, that's been my approach to audio - and it's proved to be very successful!

Marco.

[julesd68]

So the real question is what is the real worth of a high performance valve MC/MM phono stage?

Hi Alan, the real worth is going to be different for most people so I will try to answer your question purely from a personal perspective. I'm one of those people who needs to sell something to buy something, so am restricted by the worth of my current gear. My valve phono-stages have been two Croft prototypes, a Puresound P10 and finally a Conrad Jonhson EV1. The EV1 used to retail for £1800 but I was lucky enough to buy it mint for a fraction of that - I could never have dreamt of buying one new. I like the discreet styling of it but more importantly I like the sound which was a significant step up from the excellent P10. As yet have not thought about changing it. It is MM/MC for carts above 0.5mv. I would only consider selling it for a stage that offered increased performance for less money, so I would only consider buying your stage on that basis. Am not sure what you sell it for. I'd be interested to know what valves you are using as mine has 2 x 12AX7, 1 x 12AU7 and 1 x 5751.

Is there too much hype surrounding valve equipment?

Not on this forum at least!

[Ali Tait]

Alan, I would say your one box MM/MC stage would retail at 1-1.5k if put in a bling box and sold by a major manufacturer. Certainly the SQ on offer would justify such a price tag IMHO.

You could probably add another £500 to 1k for the two box version, depending on components used in the build and whether it was a balanced version or not.

[Firebottle]

I'd be interested to know what valves you are using as mine has 2 x 12AX7, 1 x 12AU7 and 1 x 5751.

Hi Julian,
Thanks for that reply, as I said my choice of valves is unusual, 2 x PCF80 plus PCC189, with 2 JFETs for the MC input.
The unit is all hard wired apart from the JFET stage and I'm making them for the introductory price of £290.

Alan