Why is HFW so biased against vintage cartridges?

[Marco]

Rob,

My view is that the best aspects of the 103 are further enhanced by use in an appropriate arm. All that is good about it and others gets better - but the negative remains because this is completely outside of the influence of the arm. A Rega RB series arm is not appropriate.
SME IV & V works well with some mass loading.

High frequency tracing is determined by the tip. If that tip cannot accurately trace high frequencies (and a conical cannot) without producing considerable distortion, it doesn't matter what arm the cartridge is attached to.

I completely agree with all of that - how could I not? It's a fact

What matters is how much this distortion bothers you, particularly when assessed alongside the positives.

Yes indeed. However, I'd add the word "perceived" before distortion, because no matter what distortion is measured objectively, it's what's heard (or not) by the listener that counts in the final analysis.

With either my bog standard 103, 103R or SA installed in my various NOS (high-mass) headshells on the Jelco, and the signal fed into the A23 SUT or HA-500, through to the valve MM stage in my Croft, I can hear no distortion which for me detracts from their wonderful way of making music, even at the end of side, which is reputed to be a common problem with conical tips - and that's all that really matters

I do think that although one can't change the laws of physics, meticulous attention to detail in terms of partnering ancillaries, and correct set-up, ameliorates a significant percentage of the issues raised by the limitations of the conical tip. But like I said, it's what the listener perceives in the final analysis that matters - some will be more sensitive to certain types of distortion than others.

The other thing is, the conical stylus is partly responsible for the beguiling musical qualities of the 103 when partnered and set-up optimally. I've heard re-tipped ones with 'posher' styli sound more finessed in a hi-fi sense (the sort of stuff that Lyra fans seem to value), but in turn lose the very qualities which make the 103 special in the first place. I've also heard this with the EMT XSD-15 (another favourite of mine), as there are versions of the same cartridge available with different styli, including your favourite VDH. But it's the conical tipped one, which sounds the most musical - that is if by 'musical' you share the same values as I do.

It also depends a lot, I feel, on the particular type of music you listen to. I maintain that the 103 is more a rock, pop, dance, and jazz cartridge than a classical one. Considering that I rarely listen to classical music, my 103(s), and my ears, are not liable to be exposed to the challenges of reproducing that type of music accurately. That's not to say that the former genres aren't also challenging in many areas, just that the particular requirements of classical music are an obstacle my 103s don't have to cross. A cartridge with a fine-line stylus is definitely better for that purpose.

The M3D/N21D combo in my system is superb with pretty much anything, and is in my opinion overall significantly better than any DL-103, even the SA. It is unquestionably up there with an SPU, in terms of its musical abilities, and deserves to be held in similar reverence amongst aficionados. The best oldies are most definitely goodies, so Adam if you're reading this, do yourself a favour: go out and find an M3D, install it as I indicated before, and experience a joy with music on vinyl that no modern cartridge can replicate...

For me, the see-saw tips too far in the wrong direction and I therefore prefer a good modern Dynavector, AT or Lyra.
I suspect some of the HFW folk have a similar view, in which case they should say so clearly and not just dismiss vintage cartridges without pointing out the good things.

Indeed! But I won't dwell on this any longer, as I've made my point now and don't wish to moan any more like an old woman

Hopefully, Adam will take my comments on board. I thus look forward to a forthcoming glowing review of the M3D in a future edition of HFW

I have never heard a M3D but would like to try one.

I'd urge you to seek one out, Rob, but *only* if you've got the right arm and headshell (it's a bloody big bugger) to use it with - and you fit an N21D stylus, not the higher-tracking N3D. The former gives more refinement and finesse without losing any of the M3D's musical abilities. That done; the sonic rewards are substantial for such a small outlay (around £120 in total).

Marco.

[DSJR]

... and mine cost me nothing........................................... ........ Thanks to Iain B and Tony L for the privilege of now owning one of these..

[David Price]

In defence of Hi-Fi World, I think the point is that we're into classic things if they're particularly distinguished in design/build and engineering terms - and not simply because they're classic. Hence we can enthuse about 301s, but not about DL103s. As Rob points out, there are engineering reasons, not just value-judgements/aesthetic reasons at play here - stylus profile being a fundamental stumbling point for the aforementioned Shure. Still, we all have to remember that whatever the design/specs/measured performance of a bit of kit is, two different people will never have quite the same reaction - for example I adore the Lyra Dorian and Noel can't stand it, yet we agree about so much else. Just shows you how personal cartridges can be!

[David Price]

Hi Marco - just also wanted to add that HFW is a 'coalition of the willing' rather than a single homogenous George Orwell-esque block - we accredit our writers (unlike What Hi-Fi) so readers can see who thinks what, and we're generally relaxed about differing views. Each unto their own, providing it's a sincerely held belief and arrived at logically and with a good degree of critical rigour. So you shouldn't look for, let alone expect, a uniform view. Can you imagine how tedious it would be if it was 'one for all'? Heaven knows, people's music tastes are varied enough! Cheers, David

[Marco]

Hi David,

I hope you are well and that the work load is easing!

In defence of Hi-Fi World, I think the point is that we're into classic things if they're particularly distinguished in design/build and engineering terms - and not simply because they're classic. Hence we can enthuse about 301s, but not about DL103s.

I understand that, but I honestly don't think that Noel, Adam or you have ever heard a DL-103 perform optimally, such as for example how I enjoy the 103SA in my own system, and so aren't really in a position to judge it with any great authority. I wait to be convinced differently. We touched on this before, if you remember

Also, be honest, have either Adam or you ever listened to a Shure M3D in anger, and if so when and in what context?

Marco.

[Barry]

The contributors to Hi Fi World magazine are of course entitled to their opinions; which extend to Decca cartridges, as well as to Denons and early Ortofons. It is unfortunate, however, that their opinions are so forceably expressed and not in a more conciliatory manner as implied in post 46.

Regards

[RobHolt]

for example I adore the Lyra Dorian and Noel can't stand it, yet we agree about so much else. Just shows you how personal cartridges can be!

I can easily understand a split of opinion there.
Both the Dorian and Argo have superb dynamics, transparency and life but both take off like a rocket at the top end.

You can get them to sound stunning with a bit of careful system matching - mainly with a speaker that starts rolling down smoothly at the top.

[DSJR]

A toppy Dorian will always upset the ragged Tannoy pepperpots as well - possibly

You know, I have to eat my words on the 103. having read various 'Choice reviews from a long time ago, the frequence range is flatter than most carts (especially the Linn ones), the tracking is more than ok at 2.5 grammes and the conical tip is well polished and aligned.

Sorry Mr price, just 'cos it's a "conical" shouldn't banish it to the side-lines. I've discovered the M3D/N21 is extremely kind to LP's that the fancy-tipped alternatives I have just don't want to know about. End-of-side isn't as bad as I thought it would be on many discs either. Groove stability seems excellent and the sense of air and atmosphere in the mid was quite unexpected (I'd never heard the N21 before).

I really think that the fine engineering that characterises the expensive "male jewellery" can possibly work against some cartridges when these things are mechanical devices. However, I would also say that an M3D/N21 may not sound good in a Rega P9..

[David Price]

Hi Marco - yes, getting slightly less mad now - but shouldn't speak too soon!

I've never heard a DL103SA - although as you know I've owned several exotic versions of the DL103 when I was living in Japan. Is the SA on sale in the UK? I am soooo tempted to get one in for review, but I have a grim sense of foreboding that whatever I/we say, we're asking for a keyboard lashing from you!

Anyway, yep - I've had an M3 (N21D). Came free with an STD305S/SME3009S2 I bought from a junk shop in Brighton back in 1992 for £40! Those were the days! It tracked fairly well at the recommended 2g, and made a very exciting and dynamic noise. Not the last word in finesse though, as I remember. I then switched to a new Audio Technica AT-33E, and didn't feel the need to go back, to be honest.

[David Price]

Hi Rob - yes, I'd say the Dorian is a stunner - absolutely gorgeous sound, providing you 'tune down' that top end slightly. Funnily enough it suited my SL1200/AO RB250 brilliantly, the SL1200 being blessed with a very grunty bass. Sonic fireworks, as they used to say in the eighties!