Arkless Phono stage

[Arkless Electronics]

63dB for the Arkless...

[Marco]

I'll likely put a switch for MM/MC on the demo one just to make it easier for people to try it with either type although I don't envisage many wanting a MM version....

Unless they only have an MM cartridge? There are some rather good ones around, you know!

I would certainly prefer it to be auditioned without a SUT as I'm no fan of them personally. My phono stages are not designed to have any sound or "voicing" of their own but to be an open and transparent window to the source (some sort of mixed metaphor there!)

I understand that, and as a solid-state 'aficionado', it's not surprising. When I say 'voiced', I don't mean in terms of introducing a pleasing sounding euphonic effect. I hate that too, and is completely NOT what any part of my system is about.

What I mean is that, with the SUT in place, the sound that the cartridge produces is more musically accurate and involving to listen to (i.e. in my opinion more faithful to how recordings should sound, based on my experience of listening to real voices and instruments, which is the opposite of what you're inferring).

It's a total 'no brainer', making the presentation without the SUT, sound rather anodyne and insipid: that sort of tonally hard and 'grey' sound you get sometimes with even the best transistor equipment, as if tonal shading and dynamic contrast, essential in making recorded music sound real, have somehow been stripped away. I'm not saying for one second that your stuff is like that, though.

Anyway, the above effect is most noticeable in Martin T's system, where even in the total absence of valves, he MUCH prefers running his Shelter 5000 cartridge into the MM input of his Whest, through his Choir Audio Hashimoto SUTs, than directly into the active MC stage - and many other pairs of discerning ears have listened to the results and arrived at the same conclusion.

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Certainly there are some good MM carts yes but once one has a top class system that can reveal the extra that a good MC can bring to the party, over and above even the best MM, most go for the MC option.... Hence I'm expecting that the majority that want to spend the extra for the turbo version will be using MC carts...

As for valves well I may well offer a valve phono stage in the future and then I've got both bases covered there! It's already designed

SUT's can sometimes cause colourations and peaking of response, also they can sometimes cause a rolling off at frequency extremes which can give a warmer presentation and make a truly accurate phono stage with active MC input sound a bit bright in comparison....
This certainly can't be said to always be the case as it varies so much depending on the SUT being used and the loading it sees from the MM stage. It also depends heavily on the cart it is used with so they do enter quite a few variables into the equation and will sometimes voice things to an extent.... Of course with the right SUT that perfectly suits the cart and MM stage they can also give a wide flat response.... it's just less easy to ensure that with an SUT... generally...

[sq225917]

I'm not having a pop here, but I've never actually heard a decent MM cartridge. Nowt over £150, i know there are some belters out there but for one reason or another they all passed me by.

[Clive]

Certainly there are some good MM carts yes but once one has a top class system that can reveal the extra that a good MC can bring to the party, over and above even the best MM, most go for the MC option.... Hence I'm expecting that the majority that want to spend the extra for the turbo version will be using MC carts...

There are some very good MMs out there but more to the point; Decca / London owners need and MM input even if their cartridges are not MM.

[Marco]

As for valves well I may well offer a valve phono stage in the future and then I've got both bases covered there! It's already designed

Nice one - it would be rather interesting to hear that.

SUT's can sometimes cause colourations and peaking of response, also they can sometimes cause a rolling off at frequency extremes which can give a warmer presentation and make a truly accurate phono stage with active MC input sound a bit bright in comparison....

I do agree, as I've heard the effect you're describing myself and dislike it. However, what I was referring to earlier was nothing to do with brightness, or anything like that, but rather which presentation of the music sounded more 'real'.

With Martin's SUT or mine, connected in line with the phono stage, the sound was simply more open, vibrant and 'alive', and conversely without them, the sound lost vibrancy, 'air and space' between voices and instruments, together with the immediacy and 'hear through' qualities, which were present before with the SUTs connected.

In summary, through the active MC input on the Whest (which is incidentally a very good phono stage), music sounded flat (as in lifeless and boring), in comparison. It should be noted that the SUTs in question cost the best part of £1500, so these are 'well sorted' products, professionally designed to do a specific job, and not act simply as a 'band-aid'.

This certainly can't be said to always be the case as it varies so much depending on the SUT being used and the loading it sees from the MM stage. It also depends heavily on the cart it is used with so they do enter quite a few variables into the equation and will sometimes voice things to an extent.... Of course with the right SUT that perfectly suits the cart and MM stage they can also give a wide flat response.... it's just less easy to ensure that with an SUT... generally...

Sure, I agree. However, in my experience, when you get it right, the results can be magical and supersede what is achievable with *most* active MC stages, certainly those I've heard so far.

What I've highlighted above (in blue) is exactly the case in Martin's circumstances and mine (indeed, in the case of my SUT and phono stage, the response has been measured), so I'm glad that you're able to acknowledge that fact, as an active MC stage fan, because so many of their designers pooh-pooh the efficacy of SUTs and deliberately go out of their way to discredit them, simply because to do otherwise is counterproductive to their commercial interests!

Therefore, respect for not doing that

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Nice one - it would be rather interesting to hear that.



I do agree, as I've heard the effect you're describing myself and dislike it. However, what I was referring to earlier was nothing to do with brightness, or anything like that, but rather which presentation sounded more 'real'.

With Martin's SUT or mine, connected in line with the phono stage, the sound was simply more open, vibrant and 'alive', and conversely without them, the sound lost vibrancy, 'air and space' between voices and instruments, together with the immediacy and 'hear through' qualities, which were present before with the SUTs connected.

In summary, through the active MC input on the Whest (which is incidentally a very good phono stage), music sounded flat (as in lifeless and boring), in comparison. It should be noted that the SUTs in question cost the best part of £1500, so these are 'well sorted' products, professionally designed to do a specific job, and not act simply as a 'band-aid'.



Sure, I agree. However, in my experience, when you get it right, the results can be magical and supersede what is achievable with *most* active MC stages, certainly those I've heard so far.

What I've highlighted above (in blue) is exactly the case in Martin's circumstances and mine (indeed, in the case of my SUT and phono stage, the response has been measured), so I'm glad that you're able to acknowledge that fact, as an active MC stage fan, because so many of their designers pooh-pooh the efficacy of SUTs and deliberately go out of their way to discredit them, simply because to do otherwise is counterproductive to their commercial interests!

Therefore, respect for not doing that


Marco.

You're twisting my words a bit there Marco! I'm saying that yes you can get very good results from a SUT but that in most cases a good active MC stage will beat most SUT's YMMV

[Audioman]

Just a suggestion chaps. If Marco has the MM/MC switchable demo version he can try MM + SUT v Active MC input. Only way to settle the argument and then this may be down to personal preference. The two approaches (solid state v valve/SUT) are likely to sound different if not one better than the other.

[sq225917]

You boys are both striving for different things. Jez wants measured neutrality and Marco wants the sound he wants to hear. There's no real way to compare those two ideals using the tools that each of you select to arrive at that goal.

[Marco]

You're twisting my words a bit there Marco!

How so, Jez? You wrote this, which I've quoted:

"This certainly can't be said to always be the case as it varies so much depending on the SUT being used and the loading it sees from the MM stage. It also depends heavily on the cart it is used with so they do enter quite a few variables into the equation and will sometimes voice things to an extent.... Of course with the right SUT that perfectly suits the cart and MM stage they can also give a wide flat response..."

I agree with every word of that, especially the bit in blue (as it reflects my own situation) - and none of it discredits what the best SUTs are capable of, when used in the right context, which is what I was complimenting you on originally!

I'm saying that yes you can get very good results from a SUT but that in most cases a good active MC stage will beat most SUT's... YMMV

Indeed, and currently my mileage does vary, as so far I've found the opposite to be true. Maybe that will change once I hear your phono stage?

Marco.