Tell me about valve equipment

[Ali Tait]

Hi çhris,
Well kind of! The static's panels will be driven directly from the anodes of the 813's via a high-voltage cap,so yes,an OTL in the sense that there are no output transformers! The difference with this should be that there will be no shortage of drive.Should do wonders for the bass response if nothing else! 813 should be good for about 1.5 kV ish peak to peak from what Nick has said,which should be plenty for the ESL III's.I'm looking forward to this as I remember Paul Barker saying this type of arrangement was the best sound he'd ever heard.I hope so!

[Giant Haystacks]

I think a otl quad electrostat would be the ultimate sound that is what i am aiming for minus 2 transformers and using probably 6a3 ,
Jack Williams is mr ecofan i was suggesting a educational thing for people who may not know to help, but if wax lyrically means blowing we dont want that so best leave it for now

[Steve Toy]

Waxing lyrical does not have to mean blowing. Unles you really do want to blow...
Share away regardless. It is definitely allowed.

[Giant Haystacks]

this is very interesting about the otl electrostat ,a few years ago Ear Yoshino done a set and two people told me this was the finest they had ever heard, I think only one set was made and the record producer Tony Faulkner owns.
Several other leathel examples were also made.
An american electrostat company Bainbridge also made a high impedence otl electrostat amp for there speaker most of the examples tryed out use some of the bigger 845 and similar valve ,
I myself have never heard a satisfying ordinary type otl but some say the the top croft otl was really good.

[Giant Haystacks]

on the subject of push pull and single ended
the amps from the late 50s and 60s which are push pull can still sound tereffic i have a braun electrostatic amplifier with el84s similar to the leak mono tl12 and stereo 20 other good amps were pye mozart which used el34 a mono amp also
,in later years audio innovations would have got us all interested again and you also have to give credit to the hifi world kits for bringing value ,
there are loads of satisfying valve amplifiers which will work with a lot of speakers ,
but if you are looking for the finest valve sound you can not be a prisoner to the loudspeaker you have to do it the other way around as the triode valves suffer when paralled for more power , also if you have a really well engineered single ended valve amplifier you will have not the biggest bass but i think the best bass. these are my thoughts on things as others have opinions also and i am bad typer also

[Ali Tait]

Well if you need more SE power then transmitter valves are the way to go.I run my stats with 845 SE,which at 20 or so watts doesn't do a bad job,but I mostly use a triode-connected 813 SE at around 35 ish I guess.I love the sound of the trioded 813 and statics,so this direct-coupled amp should I hope be something really special.

[Ian Walker]

"but if you are looking for the finest valve sound you can not be a prisoner to the loudspeaker"

Never a truer word been said hey Anthony

(I tried building a valve system around Naim DBLs)

Ian......slouching off.........

[Marco]

Ian, it's all a learning curve, mate!

For me a *good* valve amp (and I mean GOOD, as there's a fair bit of shit out there that I wouldn't entertain giving the 'side' a bad name) sounds much more like real music than any solid-state amp I've heard so far. That last rider is very important, as there could be some sand amps out there which are as good as the Copper valve amp I use, or even better. Experience suggests not, but I'm not so closed minded as to rule out the possibility.

In my experience, a good (completely hard-wired) valve amp sounds more like real music because designs facilitate a simpler signal path, i.e. there are less components in the circuit to influence or 'colour' the signal and add a 'signature' - and if the circuit is 'right' in the first place, then that is always a good thing. I'm not saying that even the best valve amps are completely neutral sounding, of course not, but in my experience (to date), the musical presentation of a valve amp when done well is more faithful to the sound of real music than what is capable from its solid-state counterpart. As ever, though, I'm up for being proven wrong!

Simplicity of the signal path is one of the reasons why SET amps can (and often do) sound sweeter and 'purer' than push-pull designs, although as ever in hi-fi, that's not the end of the story! There are many SET amps I've heard which I admire but none so far that I could live with, particularly considering the hugely varied styles of music I like to listen to, and sometimes at considerable volume! The K.I.S.S (keep it simple, stupid) principle is though without doubt the best approach when designing equipment of any nature, provided that it is accompanied with the use of the highest quality components most suited for a specific application, within the correct implementation of a particular circuit. This is usually a recipe for success. For me, good KT88 P/P designs do it best.

Often some expensive, supposedly 'high-end' valve amps are the victim of their overly complicated circuits (too much stuff in the way of the signal path) and the use of unnecessarily expensive 'bespoke' components which can when used wrongly do more harm than good. Unfortunately, in order to justify their (sometimes) ludicrously high price tags to appeal to brand-conscious 'badge snobs', some 'high-end' valve amps must be seen to be packed full of the most expensive components available and housed in the most elaborate cases, even if in many instances they're simply 'over the top' and unnecessary; the results in the process often being little more than statements of 'audiophile jewellery'.

Building a good valve amp is about getting the circuit right, keeping it as simple as possible, and using the best components for their correct application - *and* (and this is a big one) using the biggest (in terms of specification), highest quality mains and output transformers you can find to fit the case intended for use.

Quite simply, in terms of influencing the signal and reducing noise, transformers can never be too big! The power supply is the single most important area of ANY piece of equipment, and no more so than in a valve amp. It is my opinion that the criticism often directed at valve amps being 'soft' in the bass or not giving music 'pace, rhythm and timing (PRAT)', compared to the best solid-state amps, is because the transformers used aren't up to the job and are simply not good enough. It may not be that simple in some cases (over-complicated circuits are also a factor), but it's almost certainly at the root cause of the problem. OTL designs seek to solve the problem by not using any transformers, but they too impose their own compromises.

I am completely convinced that anyone who says that valve amps miss so much musical information or don't 'boogie', or any other nonsense like that I've heard from certain people, say so because they simply haven't heard a really good one! You know who you are

The solid-state amps that I've heard *so far* and used in the 25+ years I've been into high-end hi-fi, at prices ranging from a few hundred pounds to many thousands of pounds, when compared to the TD push-pull Copper amp I'm currently using, sound 'grey', flat and lifeless in comparison, with a 'grain' and 'edge' superimposed onto the signal that is IMO alien to how real music sounds. There is a signature present in the reproduction of all types of music through solid-state amps which to my ears sounds quite false and unnatural, regardless of how 'musically adept' some can be in particular areas.

The problem for me with even the best solid-state amps is their lack of dynamic range and their rather 'flat' presentation of recorded music as a result. It is because of the superior dynamic range on offer from good valve amps that music is 'unrestricted' and allowed to flow naturally, 'breathe' freely, and have the colour and expressiveness which separates the 'real' thing from a cardboard cut-out of such.

*That*, in a nutshell, is what I think GOOD valve amps do over their solid-state counterparts

Marco.

[symon]

It has been really interesting following the discussion here.

It seems to me that DIY valve equipment could be the best way to go, if you have the skills. Sadly, I don't and would have grave concerns about my health and safety if I tried going down that route.

Another pleasing element to come out is that valve equipment doesn't necessarily have to be hugely expensive. Nearly all of it is beyond my meagre budget at the moment. And, to be honest, some of the prices that I have seen are quite scary (and, to be honest, if had the money I would buy a guitar rather than a valve amp!). Marco's point is welcome, that high price does not necessarily mean hi-fi! (sorry)

One thing I was delighted to see was the new pre-amp from Croft, the Micro Basic. I think I would be tempted to try this out as a starter when I have the funds available. Does anyone any views on this?

In the end, I just want to test the waters and see if I do like valve equipment in my system. What I don't want to do is spend a large amount of money on what is, essentially, a taster.

[Marco]

Hi Peter,

Glad you're finding the thread useful so far. We try to give discussions here as much 'substance' as possible

It's always difficult successfully conveying one's experience with valve amplifier equipment so that a complete novice appreciates the 'message' intended, if you see my meaning.

I could waffle on endlessly about the various hi-fi aspects of valve and solid-state amps, but in the end it would be largely meaningless to you. Therefore what I tried to do instead, was portray a 'story' based on my experience to date, where hopefully something was written that you could relate to.

With regard to possible purchases, you're on the right track with the new Croft range of amplifiers, as Glenn's designs are the epitome of what I have described as a 'GOOD' valve amp, and once you listen to them you may not feel that you ever have to upgrade - yes they are that good! The Puresound A30 integrated is another such device of similar quality.

Another viable option is to buy a built kit from World Designs (check out their website on-line and their forum for info), as these are also very good, and with the potential for endless further tweaking should you at some point be brave enough to wield a soldering iron

There are also the various low-priced Chinese options available for importing, but considering how good, risk-free, and competitively priced the above options are I would tend to steer clear of these from both a safety and sonic point of view, and go for something designed and built in the UK, unless your equipment selection process is of a particularly speculative bent.

Marco.