LP sound from CDs

[Marco]

CD SHOULD get you nearer to the heart of the original mix

I know where you're coming from, Dave, and agree to an extent. However, so should also a well-sorted, neutral sounding turntable, which I agree the Thorens isn't, nor is ever likely to be, no matter what cartridge is on it.

Trust me, when I play the new Doors 45 rpm vinyl box set (produced from the original master tapes, via a very high quality, all-analogue recording process), on the Techy, the sound produced is utterly breathtaking and is closer to the sound of the original tapes than any CD or digital recording I've heard of the same music!

Marco.

[jandl100]

.... the sound produced is utterly breathtaking and is closer to the sound of the original tapes than any CD or digital recording I've heard of the same music!

Marco.

How do you know, Marco?

Have you heard the original master tapes?

[Marco]

Indeed... However, the same question could be directed at Dave, in reference to the CDs!

In terms of the Doors albums I was referring to, the comment is based simply on the level of dedication to recreate, as closely as possible, the sound of the original master tapes, undertaken by Acoustic Sounds and Doug Sax, including the original studio engineer, Bruce Botnick, who HAVE heard the original master tapes, as those were used as the benchmark for the sonic quality of their 45 rpm vinyl box set.

Given that the sound quality of those records significantly outperforms that of any CD or digital recoding I've heard of the same music, I know which I'd chose as my own personal reference for achieving nearest authenticity to the sound of the original tapes!

Ultimately, however, there's no question that, in the absence of being able to directly compare the sound of the original master tapes, to that of the vinyl box set or any digital recording of the same music, any such judgement is entirely subjective.

What I'm really getting at is that there is no reason why, with the right turntable and system, all set up optimally, replaying the best audiophile pressings on vinyl, the sound produced can't be as 'accurate' as that of any digital recording created of the same music.

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Gosh. How do you pick hifi by word descriptions? Clearly folk have lots of different perceptions. And there is a big pile of stuff I've never heard. My goals are neutral, detailed, natural, imaging, uncoloured and "live". Live recordings like Eric Claptons unplugged are handy for checking the latter. And I think I can recognise the warm and muddy's and harsh's being referred to. The thorens is not bad for the isolation, and can spin a disc. If you want a gentle migration towards a bit more detail, neutrality and openness on the analogue, try an achromat as a modest priced upgrade. Then maybe the Goldring 1012 cartridge. If you have a nice cuddly local dealer you could take your deck in and try both before buying (I just can't imagine buying something blind, says the man who bought his Goldring on AK's advice unauditioned)

And for digital... acknowledging I haven't heard the revered chips Marco refers to, DaCapo was certainly a revelation in how CD's can sound. As a low risk toe in the water, try to pick up a used Cambridge CD6 on ebay - about £50. CD5 is also worth a go for about £50. And then if you have a few pennies more, at least audition Westlakes latest offering - the audiolab MDac. Those will take the harshness out of CD, (as opposed to "adding warmth") - improve the detail and give you a reference for comparison. Mind, they'll probably break down, but at £50 you aren't risking too much. (there are half a dozen CD5's on ebay as of right now, one with a £39.99 buy it now price)

[Oldpinkman]

I must stop this and do some work. "LP sound from CD"? No. I've been listening to DaCapo for the first time in 20 years, gob-smacked by how good it is, and greatly impressing the missus. We both said - "its as good as an LP". It's certainly very very good, and not at all like any other digital I am used to. It's like someone grabbed the sound and spread it out, nailed each bit in place, and created a breathy naturalness to acoustic instruments. As my new hifi guru (the aforementioned Mrs S) commented "just wait till you get your proper box on the floor back" (she meant the Quad 405-2. Temporary "box on the floor" is an Arcam 10P). Then we tried a direct comparison to vinyl (Katie Melua, Secret Smphony - recently released on vinyl with a free CD in the album cover - so directly comparable recording)
DaCapo is very good. I could, and will listen to CD's on it. But whenever I can get vinyl, for the minute, I will. If anyone has a CD player / Dac they think will change my mind, and lives near kent, I am happy to open a bottle of wine when you bring it round.

[Marco]

Hi Martin,

To start narrowing down the options:

On the CDP front – does the Marantz CD63 II Ki Signature or Quad 67 CD fit the bill as described by Marco.

They may indeed (although, I'm not sure if those use TDA1541s), but personally, I'd look at the likes of the Arcam Alpha or Naim CD players, upgraded and modified by Avondale Audio, whose site is unfortunately currently under maintenance: http://avondaleaudio.com/

However, you can still call Les and speak with him about your plans. I assure you that he'll be very receptive towards them and most likely be able to supply you with a suitable CDP or advise on what is the best route to obtaining the sound you're looking for.

Failing that, I'd search on Google for 'CD players using TDA1541 chips', where you will find websites listing a whole array of them. The best examples tend to be those from Sony and Marantz, although there are others, too.

Do some research and shortlist the ones you think could be good, and then find out if replacement laser mechanisms are still available for them, by either contacting someone like Mark Bartlett, from Audiocom, who has vast experience of modding vintage CDPs, or use ebay, where replacement mechs are often sold for such players, including the actual players themselves.

Quite simply, if you can buy a spare NOS ('New Old Stock') transport mech for your chosen vintage CDP, then including the one already in the player itself (unless that one is on its last legs), the player should last you for many years, so don't worry too much about reliability. As I said, if you've managed to source a spare NOS transport mechanism, then that should last you a very long time, as the older mechanisms were built to last. I'm still on my original one, and my Sony CDP is over 26 years old - and it gets used for hours on end every day!!

Then take the plunge and obtain your chosen player (from ebay or wherever), send it to someone like Mark, for modifying and updating in key areas (such as re-clocking and PSU arrangements), whilst maximising its inherent design assets (the TDA1541 chips, a solidly built CD-only transport mechanism and usually pretty hefty linear power supplies, instead of the cheapo SMPS units usually found today in CDPs), and quite simply, you'll end up with something that will outperform most modern CDPs, costing many times more!!

The effort will be more than worth it - I promise you. Btw, as an aside, you may find this article interesting reading, which Ashley posted earlier, elsewhere on the forum:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...357#post452357

What's written on that thread is absolutely the case, and one of the reasons why the best vintage players sound more like a good turntable.

On the turntable front – rather than fiddle with my current turntable, what would be a good upgrade using currently available equipment at a sensible cost and not going esoteric?

Define "sensible cost" (i.e. tell me your max budget) and I'll see if I can help!

Marco.

[high.spirits]

Hi Marco

Thanks for the great information, I will certainly follow up on that path.

Interesting and in support of your info, many years ago I had an original Arcam Alpha CD player, after about 8 years ownership I took it into a dealer and compared it to the current range of CDPs. Even the dealer agreed it was superior to most of the kit he had unless you spent £k on a new CPD. I sold it when the other half removed HiFi from the lounge

For a turntable upgrade £800 - 900 ish.

Thanks again
Martin

[Oldpinkman]

The Rega RP6 is the obvious candidate. Personally I would wonder about keeping your TT and changing the arm. At the risk of sounding like the marketing department for Funk, instead of just a very old friend of Arthur's, you are not going to love yourself one day in the future if you don't at least make an effort to hear the LSD before parting with any cash. You might think about whether you want the arm and the mat on your TT. Taking nothing away from vector, or any other aspect of Arthurs TT design, it is the F5 arm that blows you away. Not sure whether any UK dealer actually has a working final production version in stock yet, but worth a bit of patience. It's quite "normal" looking for AK as well, so your better half will probably allow it in the living room.

[The Grand Wazoo]

At the risk of sounding like the marketing department for Funk, instead of just a very old friend of Arthur's.....

Actually, you do come across a bit like that sometimes, Richard!

[Oldpinkman]

Sorry Chris.
Of course I can't win. Arthur would doubtless say I spend all my time talking about 20 year old Dac and preamp designs that are no longer made, and not sold by his firm, and never mention his other products. To which my answer would be "I'm not your b****y marketing department".
Truth is I'm just a little boy, very happy to be listening to music at home again properly after so long, and very excited with his new toy (F5), his mended old toy (PIP) and his rediscovered old toy (DaCapo 22bit). And I'll be even happier and more excited when my power amp comes back from the amplifier hospital.
And as one who is not a virgin, if I were about to spend hard cash on a moderately priced turntable, I wouldn't want to die wondering...