Richard's hi-fi ranting 'Room 101'

[Ashley James]

Richard - if you've read other Forums you'll know that JCBrum isn't even a hi fi retailer, he's just a customer who likes our products, there are plenty of others but none so outspoken.

I think you should ignore anything relevant to specific brands and comment in a general sense of what you want to put in room 101 or whatever.

I've been thinking about your comments regarding manufacturers "killing" opposition in the past and I'm not sure they are fair either. Ivor was the driving force in those days and he contacted specialists who were being undercut by Laskeys etc and offered them an exclusive on products that the chains would not be "allowed" to sell. They didn't want them anyway and they could see an end to hi fi, VCR's were much more in demand.

Any manufacturer and Sky TV will tell you that dealers lose more business than they gain, so not surprisingly, he tied them into sales training and gave them targets, just as car manufacturers so with their dealers do today. I wish I could do something similar but I can't, I'm too smal,l just as your company always was. It's life and it sucks sometimes.

[WikiBoy]

Richard I think the situation is more complex than you imagine. For a start What Hi Fi is very powerful in all this. They gave several awards Cyrus recently and I understand that Cyrus is the big seller of the moment and that others of equal merit are doing far less well. Is PR playing a part in this and are they furthering certain manufacturers' causes?

Then there are discount deals done between retailers and manufacturers where larger ones can extract can obtain colossal discounts and then share it with shop sales staff to "steer them". Is this in part responsible for bloated prices? I think this is an are where customers are becoming suspicious.

Manufacturers cannot dictate to dealers and dealers aren't good salesmen, most hand over what customers ask for, therefore they must create a situation where customers ask for their products. Bose and B & O etc can afford to do this but even the bigger manufacturers advertising, isn't IMO, as powerful as Five Star reviews.

Therefore I think it's a cosy relationship between dealers, manufacturers and press that's sustaining the Status Quo, however, because the market is undergoing fairly dramatic changes at the moment, ones that aren't popular with retailers and certain manufacturers, I think we may see things change.

Specialist hi end dealers are relatively small players compared with certain chains.

I wish you would read the thread, those points have been covered. Magazines are part of the mafia. It is a triumvirate - manufacturer - magazine - retailer. All looking for the easy way to fill the trough. In the past because of what I have talked about in this thread it was extremely expensive or next to impossible to break into, and you have to agree to abide by the rules otherwise you will be killed. So why are they now running scared, well because the tables are turned the power is now moving to the customer, the enthusiast. It is all in the thread if you read it. AND the mafia is running scared, so the usual way is to corrupt those that come in like the forum owners, make them want to become part of the trough slurping, a fourth element. So has it been throughout history and so it will be unless *the person* - *the individual* stands up for himself in numbers. Democracy has always been a bullshit delusion, the constituency sheep to bleet and then be castrated. The web is wonderfull, it is a new and burgioning freedom in all areas, if people understand and create *weight*.

Also you are talking about mainstream, I am not, I am talking about the specialist market, the so called high end market. The enthusiast, the wally, the geek, the salt of the earth, what ever you want to call them. They have been taken for fools, now they have a chance to change it.

[WikiBoy]

Richard - if you've read other Forums you'll know that JCBrum isn't even a hi fi retailer, he's just a customer who likes our products, there are plenty of others but none so outspoken.

I think you should ignore anything relevant to specific brands and comment in a general sense of what you want to put in room 101 or whatever.

I've been thinking about your comments regarding manufacturers "killing" opposition in the past and I'm not sure they are fair either. Ivor was the driving force in those days and he contacted specialists who were being undercut by Laskeys etc and offered them an exclusive on products that the chains would be "allowed" to sell. They didn't want them anyway and they could see an end to hi fi, VCR's were much more in demand.

Any manufacturer and Sky TV will tell you that dealers lose more business than they gain, so not surprisingly, he tied them into sales training and gave them targets, just as car manufacturers so with their dealers do today. I wish I could do something similar but I can, I'm too small just as your company always was. It's life and it sucks sometimes.

Others do it so that makes it right. Sorry wrong. In the early days this industry was its enthusiast not the marketing men. Now you think you have taken it over so you can't even see the wood for the trees, you are so full of it you don't even see the contridictions in what you are saying. All the time those with eyes open are judging. One of the greatest skills of the marketer is to get others to do it for you. All ready refered to in past posts as the amateur marketers, doing your work for you for free - mugs!

There are only two things that are important 1 people who design and create product 2 people who use product - *EVERYTHING ELSE* and *EVERYONE ELSE* is an overhead, an on-cost, something that has to justify its slurp. People will decide not me if you have earned it and they are willing to pay hard earned cash (in this case) *over* 70% of the price they pay for the privilege of supporting a feast of hangers on.

[Ashley James]

I think it's true that the Pioneers of our Industry like Peter Walker, Arthur Radford, Harold Leak, Gilbert Briggs, Raymond Cooke, Laurie Fincham, the BBC spawned companies, John Bowers and many others I can't remember, really cared passionately about what they did and for a short while, because of their efforts, we lead the world in Loudspeaker design if not amplifiers, but I think it all went wrong as it started to contract in the early eighties. I think the Industry lost sight of it's true objectives and the bullshit took over and it's dominated everything until the last couple of years or so. Now we've all been overtaken by the pro audio sector and computers and things may well change.

I'm afraid that it's utter nonsense to declare that the person (and his mythical customer) who creates something is the most important, for a start he may have no understanding of the market and he may design something no one wants or could possibly afford. He (or you) is just part of a team and unless that's accepted, companies go out of business.

Therefore marketing is just as important as the products creator or the chap that manages the money. Teams of individuals with a respect for each others talents are what work, not opinionated individuals, though sometimes they can sell or inspire things.

[jcbrum]

I'm sorry Richard, I have no Idea what you are talking about. What is NVA ? and what's it got to do with HiFi ? , I've never heard of it .

My post was in direct reply to Shian7 who said he didn't know who was what. I simply explained my own position and none of it was bullshit.

You seem very cross about something but I don't know what it is.

As far as teams are concerned I would rather choose my hifi from a supplier that I had confidence in, and who would help me when necessary, and I would be prepared to endorse his product on that basis. That's all there is to it.

As far as overhead is concerned, every well run business has "overhead" and to think that all customers should deal only with an assembly worker is naive in the extreme. I certainly couldn't run my business that way and I don't know any other successful person who could, except maybe plumbers and back street garage mechanics.

[WikiBoy]

I think it's true that the Pioneers of our Industry like Peter Walker, Arthur Radford, Harold Leak, Gilbert Briggs, Raymond Cooke, Laurie Fincham, the BBC spawned companies, John Bowers and many others I can't remember, really cared passionately about what they did and for a short while, because of their efforts, we lead the world in Loudspeaker design if not amplifiers, but I think it all went wrong as it started to contract in the early eighties. I think the Industry lost sight of it's true objectives and the bullshit took over and it's dominated everything until the last couple of years or so. Now we've all been overtaken by the pro audio sector and computers and things may well change.

I'm afraid that it's utter nonsense to declare that the person (and his mythical customer) who creates something is the most important, for a start he may have no understanding of the market and he may design something no one wants or could possibly afford. He (or you) is just part of a team and unless that's accepted, companies go out of business.

Therefore marketing is just as important as the products creator or the chap that manages the money. Teams of individuals with a respect for each others talents are what work, not opinionated individuals, though sometimes they can sell or inspire things.

You really are in gobble-de-gook land. Each of the people you mention did not design product for customers, they designed it for themselves, because they were in reality architype customers themselves. People who create products for markets are in delusion and that is when the companies become run by accountants and marketing directors. AND that curruption seems to be the fate of all companies as they outgrow the desire and character of the founder.

Of course the guy who is an enthusiast and a customer at heart does things wrong, that is the beauty of it. That is why Beresford makes a new dac every week, he is driven by the desire to improve it *for him*. Customers are the thing that makes it possible for him to fullfill his dream. Then the corruption comes, he hires an accountant because he has staff and overheads and a government and a council to satisfy. Then he finds that sales need management so in comes the professional marketing man. Bang out the window goes the very reason he started in the first place. So he sells the company and makes enough money to live on comfortably from it and keeps his hobby to himself as he has learned a lesson. And what happens, corporate think and behaviour lives off his reputation for a while and then they **** it up. If the start up guy happens to be marketing or money man in the first place then we get the corruptions I have been talking about so much, he is just using the man with the skill and art of product, who then maybe drinks himself to death when he realises how he has been ripped off, to use the example of one famous case.

I repeat for an enthusiast market, which believe it or not high end hi-fi is, the only thing that is important is an enthusiast creating a product and another enthusiast using that product.

[Ashley James]

Richard if the market continues to contract It's likely that what you're describing may come about before total extinction, but if we want it to grow and to progress, to further the cause of accurate sound reproduction, then a more considered approach is needed and it'll be a proper and professional company that succeeds, not individuals.

Beresford isn't a good example either because a DAC should be part of a system and has to be implemented as per the manufacturers instructions. Search any DAC part number and you'll find out how to do it, there's no scope for improving it, you can only do what you're told and it's far better value for the customer if does other things as well like an M-Audio 2496 which costs about £50.

What's needed are new ideas, better ways of doing things and ways of introducing these ideas to customers used to far more than a DAC in a Box and it needs a team to do it.

[WikiBoy]

It would be nice to know who makes/markets what!

Other than Richard = NVA, I haven't got a clue!

That is the problem Mike, you don't even know who is trying to brainwash you.

A bit extreme, but the subliminal arts are taught in marketing school and NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) is even sold now as a new age health art

[Steve Toy]

Good post Richard. As it happens, tomorrow I am off to South Wales to see Anthony about valve amplification on a small scale reproducing beautiful music.

[WikiBoy]

Richard if the market continues to contract It's likely that what you're describing may come about before total extinction, but if we want it to grow and to progress, to further the cause of accurate sound reproduction, then a more considered approach is needed and it'll be a proper and professional company that succeeds, not individuals.

Beresford isn't a good example either because a DAC should be part of a system and has to be implemented as per the manufacturers instructions. Search any DAC part number and you'll find out how to do it, there's no scope for improving it, you can only do what you're told and it's far better value for the customer if does other things as well like an M-Audio 2496 which costs about £50.

What's needed are new ideas, better ways of doing things and ways of introducing these ideas to customers used to far more than a DAC in a Box and it needs a team to do it.

*My* market will contract into what it should be, what it was and what it should have stayed. The rest will go into Ipods and other gobble-de-gook. The enthusiast will have his valves, his good solid state, his record decks, his DACs and transports, his cables and cones etc - HIS FUN!! and HIS HOBBY!! and by far the most important HIS MUSIC!!

Hopefully the market will split so we don't have to put up with the likes of this *discussion* ever again, we can but hope!