Which Tannoys, folks?

[f1eng]

I have just read this thread. It took a long time. I am not knowledgeable about Tannoy speakers (but have enjoyed them the twice I have listened) so no comments here.

I have a couple of points to make though.

Firstly several posters mentioned the superiority of a single 15" unit over multiple small units "because it hardly moves". Well clearly that depends! 4 8" units will move -less- than a single 15", and have 4 motors. I am not disputing what is heard, I haven't compared a speaker with a 15" bass unit with one with 4 8" units... Just sayin'

Secondly when I worked for Garrard in the 1970s manufacturing cost being 10% of retail was a fact.
The manufacturing cost being piece-part plus assembly. I was told this was industry standard, apart from Linn who priced based on what the market could stand (ie -much- more than 10x manufacturing cost at that time, its a fashion business ;-)).
Now at that time all punters expected a 30% discount, so this was factored in to this markup. IIRC the dealer markup was 15% (+ the 30% to allow for a discount to match Comet), distributor margin was 15%, Garrards margin was 10%, the rest went on tooling, R&D and general infrastructure investment.
Yes thats right, the company with the highest skill, most employees and biggest risk had the smallest margin, but otherwise nobody would have stocked it.
We looked into supplying a full range of electronics at the time, since many dealers were forced to stock (and aggressively market) turntables by the Japanese majors if they wanted to sell the electronics. A highly regarded cassette player sold by Pioneer for >£100 was available from the OEM for £9, if we wanted it. And so forth.
It is not just HiFi, the only other product I have in depth experience of is cars, and they are about the same.

[DSJR]

Linn certainly worked on the 10 times figure, the £499 Lingo (on launch) costing £47 or so to make (their rep told me). I suspect Naim do too, if not more on their more expensive products. Anything the customer will pay

Yep, I'm mentioning them again, but Rega used to work an approximate 7 times, cost to retail on their speakers certainly, although I was told that on their cheaper turntables, the arm was far more profitable than the decks themselves.

[Reffc]

The figures mentioned mirror similar figures which I'm aware of for other brands too. What I find incredulous though isn't that a £400 product costs £40 to manufacture, it was what Tannoy gave as a reason for not using decent connections within their speakers. David was told that £1500 to £2000 might be the impact at RRP cost of using a decent block connector and soldering a few other connections. I don't believe that it would add that much because I don't believe it would cost them anywhere near £200 to £300 per pair of speakers to do the job properly. It more likely would add £50 to a set of speakers at manufacturing stage to do a proper job.

[Marco]

It more likely would add £50 to a set of speakers at manufacturing stage to do a proper job.

Indeed, and why it's a disgraceful rip-off if the figures, quoted from Tannoy, are true!

Marco.

[tannoyman]

The figures mentioned mirror similar figures which I'm aware of for other brands too. What I find incredulous though isn't that a £400 product costs £40 to manufacture, it was what Tannoy gave as a reason for not using decent connections within their speakers. David was told that £1500 to £2000 might be the impact at RRP cost of using a decent block connector and soldering a few other connections. I don't believe that it would add that much because I don't believe it would cost them anywhere near £200 to £300 per pair of speakers to do the job properly. It more likely would add £50 to a set of speakers at manufacturing stage to do a proper job.

Hi Paul

The numbers I used with Tannoy were £200 to £300 for Tannoy to get it right. Bear in mind that included a set of 8 WBT 0710ag silver binding posts that cost me £350. They of course would get them much cheaper, say half what I paid. The tag block in place of the dreadful Molex connector would cost literally pennies and hardwiring in place of the automotive push on spades likewise. However the canteen lady could no longer assemble them.

The main point I trying to was make was that these costs in the grand scheme of things for a speaker which now costs more than £23000 are minimal and to continue using Christmas cracker quality connectors pretending that its "state of the art" amounts to treating your customers with contempt. It shows the very low regard they have for us as customers believing that we are not smart enough to understand what they are up to. The analogy I used with Tannoy was that it was a bit like selling a Ferrari fitted with cross ply tyres and allowing the customer to find it did not handle well (when he landed in the ditch on a bend?) and then have to find and buy himself a set of low profile radials. Can you imagine the fun Jeremy Clarkson would have with a high end motor manufacturer who was silly enough to do that!

I have to say that I nearly did not do these upgrades, because working with Westminster Royals even the simplest job is daunting and onerous because of their sheer scale and weight. I was lucky that I had some very good and interested friends who very kindly helped with some of the heavy lifting and moving. Strangely it does not bother me now because in the course of my 10 month project (yes it took me that long) I learned how to handle the cabinets easily and safely so only when they need to be directly lifted or lowered do I now need any help.

I think one of the reasons that manufacturers can still get away with this kind of thing is because we customers are a very diverse bunch. We have different levels of knowledge and experience, different combinations of kit, different systems architecture and completely different listening environments. Probably most of all we have different expectations from our systems and last but not least, completely different listening tastes. This enables them to hide behind the platitude that says "but you customers all want something different. How can we possibly cater for all of your requirements?"
The reality I suspect is more banal and mercenary. They actually do not know what should be done because they do the bare minimum R&D and testing to bring a product to market and no more. So many of the design and production decisions that should have been made after thorough listening tests are simply not done. "we can't do that, another product is scheduled into the test facilities tomorrow". The result is that cost and manufacturing convenience take priority over sound quality and long term customer satisfaction.
Unbelievably, one unguarded comment I got from their technical sales people was "but we're only manufacturers". Now ain't that da troof!


I must get off my soap box now, I've been up here so long I think it's got woodworm.

David

[tannoyman]

Indeed, and why it's a disgraceful rip-off if the figures, quoted from Tannoy, are true!

Marco.

and they are

[DSJR]

Many long standing engineers refuse to accept, or at least severely doubt, that subtle changes like this (wiring, terminals, caps-n-coils) can make any audible difference at all. My possible argument is that "better" components can actually bring the crossover to theoretically perfect setup perhaps?

In a speaker costing as much as Westminster Royals, I think it's mad to deny this speaker the best connectors inside and out. I mean, back in the early 1980's, the extensive research they carried out showed just how intrusive the rotary switches were on their earlier crossovers, especially a few years after manufacture. That's why they changed to the gold plated screw tag strip as I recall. Why they couldn't take this thinking just a little further into the connectors inside and out is a mystery. gawd, even stalwart brand Harbeth uses nice looking and very heavy gold plated terminals and even their standard wiring is a good gauge, while remaining flexible enough for the task.

Back in the 80's, audio was priced high, but in the UK, we seemed to have enough disposeable income to allow the manufacturers huge profits. These days, the few left that still make loads are clearly exposed - in my opinion...

[f1eng]

Hi Paul

The analogy I used with Tannoy was that it was a bit like selling a Ferrari fitted with cross ply tyres and allowing the customer to find it did not handle well (when he landed in the dich on a bend?) and then have find and choose himself a set of low profile radials. Can you imagine the fun Jeremy Clarkson would have with a high end motor manufacturer who was silly enough to do that!

David

It is unlikely that a motor manufacturer would supply Clarkson with a car with defective tyres. I would be prepared to bet 5p of my own cash that cars for evaluation are fitted with higher grip (poorer wear) tyres than standard since that is the easiest way to make a car look good and do a quick lap in the hands of Stig.
Inside many cars there are some massive economies though. It does require great cleverness for a manufacturer to cut manufacturing cost without it being spotted by the customer.
Cars are the same cost wise BTW, I happen to know that a very highly rated executive sports saloon retailing around £40,000 costs 4500-5000 Euro to make, depending on options.
I remember when Lotus were trying to sell their active technology in Detroit that a purchasing guy told him they paid $1 per damper from the OEM!

[tannoyman]

Many long standing engineers refuse to accept, or at least severely doubt, that subtle changes like this (wiring, terminals, caps-n-coils) can make any audible difference at all. My possible argument is that "better" components can actually bring the crossover to theoretically perfect setup perhaps?

Hi David

If such engineers still exist in audio industry perhaps they should consider another career path.

David

[tannoyman]

[QUOTE=f1eng;388445]I have just read this thread. It took a long time. I am not knowledgeable about Tannoy speakers (but have enjoyed them the twice I have listened) so no comments here.

Secondly when I worked for Garrard in the 1970s manufacturing cost being 10% of retail was a fact.

Hi Frank

One additional point here is that the business model was somewhat different in the 1970's. Manufacturers, including top flight ones such as Garrard, SME, Shure, Goldring Lenco, Rogers, Kef and Wharfedale all distributed to retail stores through the wholesale channel so there was an extra margin involved. Companies such as Harris & Russell and Brown Brothers distributed high end hi fi equipment in those days. Towards the middle and late 1970's multiples like Comet (RIP) and Laskys with greater purchasing power entered the fray along with a myriad of small local specialist stores. Distribution then switched from Manufacturer to Wholesaler to Retailer to Manufacturer direct to Retailer. The reason for this was of course as always pecuniary - better margins for all concerned.


So very different times

David