Shuggie's SL-1210 Blog Revived

[MartinT]

Tony - I think the turntable / arm / mat interface is critical now that Dave Cawley has showed me the error of my (previous) ways. The SDS Isoplatmat made the deck sound 'grey' despite the fact that it seemed to damp the platter very well. The Audiophile mat doesn't appear to damp the platter as well, until you put a record on it, that is.

I also forgot that I'm now using Isonoe isolation feet, which have improved the deck's lightness of feet across complex material.

[Tony G]

~ snip ~
I also forgot that I'm now using Isonoe isolation feet, which have improved the deck's lightness of feet across complex material.

Martin,
that was exactly where I was coming from WRT the supports/feet - I am suspicious of the effect of the stillpoints in that they may have contributed to the reduced "weight" - again though these things often seem to be dependent on the underlying platform as to their overall effect.
It seems somewhat as though some degree of rigidity is necessary for weight & heft and a balance of movement to allow high frequency resonance disippation.

[Marco]

Hi Martin,

Tony - I think the turntable / arm / mat interface is critical now that Dave Cawley has showed me the error of my (previous) ways. The SDS Isoplatmat made the deck sound 'grey' despite the fact that it seemed to damp the platter very well. The Audiophile mat doesn't appear to damp the platter as well, until you put a record on it, that is.

I completely agree, as that's what I've also found since removing the SDS and using Dave's mat (a trimmed Herbie's). The latter doesn't damp the platter as well but contributes to a far better, more musical sound. And when a record is placed on the mat any remaining ringing is then fully dampened.

I have to agree with Marco here in that comments referring to the 1210 as sounding like a budget deck just don't tally with what I'm hearing and suggest that the synergy between that set of components is just all wrong.

This is exactly the point I was making to Shuggie, and it's worth repeating again so it sinks in:

The overall performance/sonic signature/music-making ability (select whichever you wish to apply) of a turntable is reflected by the sum of its constituent parts.

It's all about synergy or 'holism', as Dave Cawley puts it. There could be a multitude of reasons why Shuggie is hearing the "musical greyness" with his 1210 which aren't connected to the deck itself.

Like Tony says, supports/feet, and how a given turntable reacts with those is significant, as are any number of other interfaces which contribute to the final effect we hear when the stylus hits the groove: the mat used, the tonearm and cartridge selected, the phono stage and how successfully all those bits gel together, not to mention the sonic signature of the rest of the system all play a big part. That's why it's important to consider all the variables and not simply focus on one part of the equation as being the sole cause of any particular effect heard.

However, based on experience, I strongly suspect that the primary cause of the "musical greyness" Shuggie reports is down to the deck showcasing (in all its glory) the tonal characteristics and sonic signature of his Rega-derived tonearm. Experience tells me that the 1210, when driven by a high quality PSU, such as the Time Step or KAB, acts simply as a top-notch motor unit, and thus neutral sonic platform, from which then to hear the tonal and musical characteristics of the partnering arm and cartridge. Therefore, when one uses a tonearm and/or cartridge which exhibits a particular sonic signature, that is effectively what is revealed upon listening.

As I've said before, it's no coincidence I feel that both Richard (Gromit) and Shuggie have reported very similar results with the 1210, musically, as a result of using similar Rega-derived arms despite again both reporting excellent results in other areas. Richard in particular went out of his way to get the 1210 to work (for him), and like I said kudos to him for having the patience and determination to go the extra mile, but ultimately I feel that he got everything right apart from the final part of the jigsaw: his choice of tonearm, as appears also to be the case with Shuggie.

The reason why Martin and I, and Peter, and many others have got it 'right' with our modified 1210s is because the synergy is right. Quite simply, one can only appreciate, musically, the sum of the constituent parts if the constituent parts are ‘right’ in the first place...

Marco.

[Peter Stockwell]

I would add that Dave's 3.7mm audiophile mat doesn't give enough range of VTA adjustement with the SME IV, and I would imagine, the 309, because the arm rest gets awfully close to the deck. I've just obtained a 6.1mm Herbies Way Excellent II mat that gives me 2.4mm of extra adjustement range.

My stand is most likely not properly designed it's a wooden skeletal tripod stand with SDS isolating squares under a nice granite slab. The SDS squares are ver good here.

I've got standard spikes into RDC buttons to the hardwood over concrete floor, and the feet on the TT are Soundhifi feet ones. I was looking at other choices but haven't gone for the isonoes, yet. The blurb says the harder the surface the better they work. Can't get much harder than granite.

Had shivers all over with the Steve Young version of "The Night they drove Old Dixie down".

[Marco]

Peter,

Have you found any difference in the sound you're getting now with the thicker mat (VTA correctness aside) compared to the thinner one before?

The reason I ask is that, according to Dave, and I can understand where he's coming from, the thinner mat is the better solution as it mates more closely with the record and platter to give its desired effect.

The thicker the mat, the less the record is able to be 'bonded' to the mat and platter, as you're introducing more of an interface. One also has to watch that things aren't over-damped, which is partly why I think the stock thick rubber mat doesn't work.

The trouble is of course, it's a difficult effect for you to analyse because the chances are the sonic gains you've achieved from being able to set VTA correctly will likely outweigh any negative effect of the thicker mat.

Any thoughts on this?

Marco.

[Peter Stockwell]

Marco,

I'd concur with Dave's observations, but I preferred being able to adjust VTA to my liking. Steve at Audiolabs asserts that sonic differences are minimal or non existant. I'd say the relatively low platter of the SL1200/SL1210 makes getting VTA right dificult to acheive. I was able to raise the arm a touch with the 6.1mm mat. Maybe an intermediate size is better overall with the arm/cartridge I'm running. But since I got hit for 37€ of import duty plus the $30 of shipping I'm not going to buy another size to find out.

[Ammonite Audio]

Marco

The essential point that I have been trying to make, is that in my opinion the SL-1210 is (as far as I have taken it) no great music maker, certainly in comparison to other 'tables that I have owned, with or without a Rega-derived arm. That is my opinion - if I heard your system I may well find your own SL-1210 to be similarly limited, and if so that would be down to my individual preference. There is so much more to this music reproduction lark than just the mechanical bits: the brain is an important component too. That may explain why I cannot listen to Podium speakers, or horns of any kind, and find the revered big Tannoys to be harsh enough to strip the plating off an Oscar at one hundred paces. That's me, and I understand that others are different.

Now, having stated that, I have a suspicion that Dave's motor dynamics mod may bring the SL-1210 to where I wish it to be, so I am going to have it done, as the incremental cost is modest enough to be worth the effort. While I'm there I may get his armboard too, as the OL one is a PITA.

So, please wait out for a further episode in this interesting odyssey.

Shuggie

[Marco]

I completely agree, Shuggie. No-one's saying that you're not entitled to your opinion, just not to write off the 1210 as "no great music maker" on account that you may, perhaps (humour me and entertain the notion) not yet have heard it with the right arm

It's the "as far as I've taken it" bit above that, IMO, is crucial to keep in mind.

My view, based on experience, is that there's not much 'not to like' about the 1210, sonically, once one fits a quality external PSU. The motor unit itself has little 'sound' or overt character of its own and simply turns the platter round consistently at the right speed (which surprisingly many decks, particularly low-mass belt-drives, fail to achieve); any 'character' or sonic signature heard when playing music is mainly down to the partnering arm, cartridge, and other ancillary items, and of course the rest of the system it's being used with.

I await further instalments of your odyssey with much interest!

Marco.

[Marco]

Peter,

I'd concur with Dave's observations, but I preferred being able to adjust VTA to my liking. Steve at Audiolabs asserts that sonic differences are minimal or non existant. I'd say the relatively low platter of the SL1200/SL1210 makes getting VTA right dificult to acheive.

I completely agree. The low height of the platter on the 1210 is a PITA, especially when using a low-bodied cartridge. Feel for us 103 users!

I think your AT-33PTG is better in that respect. I also agree about the mat - it's not important enough to worry about, but I thought I'd make the point for the benefit of others who may be considering doing the same thing.

As an aside, on a different subject (the oft-mentioned PL-71), I think that it would be very interesting what results were obtained by fitting the supplied arm to a 1210, as my feeling is that a significant part of the Pioneer's reported musicality is down to its tonearm (I believe of Acos Lustre origin). I suspect that it has similar sonic characteristics to the Jelco 750. The Pioneer also has a superior PSU (more heavy duty than on the 1210 as standard) but of course one can address this on the Technics with the off-board KAB or Time Step PSU options.

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Guys

I will have a wonderful retro solution for VTA soon! so don't sell your old mats yet...........

And our mat is not "a trimmed Herbie's" it was made from scratch, especially for me and the SL-1200 my Herbie himself!!

Regards

Dave