Shuggie's SL-1210 Blog Revived

[Marco]

Just to add something further on this subject...

One of the reasons why I think the Pioneer and Kenwood are reported to work so well (although I haven't heard this myself) is that all the 'bits' which make up the respective decks are high quality and have been designed and engineered to work together - it's that synergy thing again.

The problem with the 1210 is that the stock 'bits', outside of the motor unit itself, arguably aren't as good as those of the Pioneer or Kenwood, so one has to find not only better 'bits', but better 'bits' that synergise and work optimally together, as is the case with the other two decks mentioned.

I believe that some people have been more successful than others in this respect, which is obvious from the results reported. I can’t stress this enough: the performance of any turntable will always be reflected by the sum of its constituent parts, just as any hi-fi system is.

One thing's for sure though - when you get it absolutely right with the 1210 the results are very special...

Marco.

[Ammonite Audio]

I don't necessarily agree with you about stock bits on the Kenwood (and PL-71). The Kenwood's stock arm is laughable (even though some on audio forums have vociferously stated otherwise). It's plinth is a cheap box of thin and resonant chipboard, which conventional wisdom states should not work well, certainly in comparison with the Technics' alloy chassis. But, the fact remains that the Kenwood, modified only in terms of a Tecnoarm being fitted via a small bit of plywood and some blobs of Blu-Tak, sees off an (expensively) modified Technics when fitted with the same arm. I have a sneaking feeling that the Kenwood benefits by having a relatively low torque motor unit, and a larger and more massive platter.

While the Technics is a fine piece of kit for a modest amount of money, no amount of badgering or evangelical insistence is going to tell me that it's anything other than a well-engineered budget deck, with a limited ability to play music (rather than deliver Hi-Fi fireworks). The Time Step PSU does significant things to improve it, but when you consider what can be bought elsewhere for the same money, it does (in my opinion, of course) look like poorish value.

But, as I have stated already, I have not yet finished. The Kenwood has a small speed variation problem that will hopefully be resolved when Paul Hynes has fettled its power supplies for me. So, I will be keeping the Technics and I shall continue to try to bring it up to the musical standard that I expect. So, I will be interested to know more about the motor dynamics mod from Dave; and the Paul Hynes PSU that I'm getting soon may drag something out of the deck that the Time Step doesn't quite manage to do.

We are all individuals, and in this case we are clearly looking for different interpretations of audio nirvana.

[Peter Stockwell]

While the Technics is a fine piece of kit for a modest amount of money, ..., with a limited ability to play music (rather than deliver Hi-Fi fireworks). The Time Step PSU does significant things to improve it, but when you consider what can be bought elsewhere for the same money, it does (in my opinion, of course) look like poorish value.

Do you mean the Project Genie ?

I just installed a Squeezebox Classic at home, cost me 189€, and it certainly sounds, with the right files and TC7510 Dac, as satisfying as the Technics/SME/AT33PTG combo I have, and I don't have to get up to change songs. I think if I had only one source it would be the SB Classic, because you get internet radio, too. I listened to a bit of WWOZ from Nawlins sunday and was staggered by how good it sounds! (As good as a certain vintage sony tuner I once had!).

Anyway there is something that is niggling me with the Technics and I can't put my finger on it yet, and it's akin to the sound of someone banging a cardboard box instead of a richly toned bass drum.

I'm toying with the idea of doing the faceoff between the Kab ps1200 and the Timestep PSU. As I see it I can have them connectable, but not switched on, simultaneously to the deck and I would be able to decide which was best for me.

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Shuggie

The Time Step PSU is part of a system, it is not just a PSU. We have dissected and thoroughly analysed the SL-1200 in minute detail, that is why we can speak with authority and know "almost" everything! We analysed the built in regulator and realised that was a problem and we checked on almost every aspect, here is just a corner of our lab http://www.soundhifi.com/test.html . A power supply with a deliberately higher impedance might sound better, but much worse after the dynamic mods and the bearing mod? I regard the Timestep Sound Hi Fi mods as part of a system, and an evolving system at that.

I have here the original SL-120, a dozen SP-10's, a SP-15 and a SP-25. I have also looked very carefully at the Grand Prix Monaco. I understand Technics philosophy better than most and I'm in here for the long haul!

No one had ever considered the PLL dynamics before, why? too complex? no time? Whatever I don't know, but it is an essential part of what makes a direct drive sound like. The Micro Seiki DQX-1000 (Google images and check out http://www.my-micro.de/dqx1000.htm ) has significantly lower torque than the SL-1200 in standard form.

So what about the motor control on the SL-1200? After all these years it's now configured for DJ use and has as much torque applied as it can, and that leads to the PLL being close to the edge of instability as you can see here http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm (near the bottom of the page) . It's unlikely that the average person has intimate knowledge of feedback principles or PLL dynamics, and it's beyond this forum to teach it. You could just take my word as an ex Senior Design Engineer of Philips that I do. But basically the motor is running flat out, and what we do is to basically reduce the torque and smooth out the whole system. No good for scratching, but great for Hi Fi.

And then there is the main bearing and the platter, all in good time......... All the subsequent mods will only work as intended with the Time Step PSU, we know what the long term goal is. However today, as a new turntable, a modified SL-1200 takes some beating, there are several out there with SME 309's and very expensive cartridges and also several with the SA-750D/DL-103SA.

I could go on, but it's time for breakfast.............

Regards

Dave

[Peter Stockwell]

And then there is the main bearing and the platter, all in good time......... All the subsequent mods will only work as intended with the Time Step PSU, we know what the long term goal is.

All very intersting stuff! I feel temptation getting the better of me.

[Ammonite Audio]

So what about the motor control on the SL-1200? After all these years it's now configured for DJ use and has as much torque applied as it can, and that leads to the PLL being close to the edge of instability as you can see here http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm (near the bottom of the page) . It's unlikely that the average person has intimate knowledge of feedback principles or PLL dynamics, and it's beyond this forum to teach it. You could just take my word as an ex Senior Design Engineer of Philips that I do. But basically the motor is running flat out, and what we do is to basically reduce the torque and smooth out the whole system. No good for scratching, but great for Hi Fi.

Hi Dave

This is really what I wanted to hear. I have seen the details on your website, but now that you;ve explained it further I'm much more interested. I presume that the mod is something that you do, rather than entrust it to the DIYer? Maybe I need to drive down to Devon sometime!

Are you in a position to spill the beans on your platter and bearing work? My posts may indicate that I am close to giving up on the SL-1210, but it's such an enticingly compact and easy to operate proposition that I am keen to give it a chance, within reasonable cost boundaries.

Cheers

Shuggie

[DSJR]

I'd be interested to see if Dave can do anything for the old SL110/120/150 decks, as the 120 and 150 are still cheap enough, if rather feedback prone (fantastic motor units though with smooth running and just enough torque.)

[Marco]

Hi Shuggie,

While the Technics is a fine piece of kit for a modest amount of money, no amount of badgering or evangelical insistence is going to tell me that it's anything other than a well-engineered budget deck, with a limited ability to play music (rather than deliver Hi-Fi fireworks). The Time Step PSU does significant things to improve it, but when you consider what can be bought elsewhere for the same money, it does (in my opinion, of course) look like poorish value.

No one is "badgering" you, nor are you being subjected to "evangelical insistence". I am only offering an alternative experience which is equally as valid as yours, but for some reason you're being rather defensive and somewhat confrontational. I am still convinced, based on said experience, that what you're hearing is largely to do with the sonic signature of your tonearm, not the turntable itself. I wish you luck though in finding what you're looking for

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

But basically the motor is running flat out, and what we do is to basically reduce the torque and smooth out the whole system. No good for scratching, but great for Hi Fi.

That little snippet is most interesting! It certainly makes sense in principle. How does this tally though with the SP10, which if I'm correct in presuming, has greater torque than an SL-1200 or 1210?

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

The SP-10 is not running flat out!

Dave