High or low-mass record weights/clamps: which is best?

[Clive]

Dunno if im being a tad behind the door but the whole idea of putting even more weight onto a bearing let alone stress on the motor is something ive never contemplating doing! ive always gone the lightweight Michell type clamp route (Even though im fuming at the min as i have a NOS Michell 'Focus One' clamp boxed that i cannot find anywhere in the house for he life of me)

I hope you find it Andre! In theory you're right about heavy weights IMO but as Marco's been saying, does it really matter? Maybe the benefit is so great on some decks that the downsides aren't relevant. Then again on other decks if rumble is excited to such a degree clearly it's the wrong route for those decks.

What I will say is that I don't believe most TT manufacturers calculate the platter weight and bearing load. Some even offer heavier optional platters whilst using the same bearing.

[Marco]

What's being missed here, Clive, is that a turntable, like any other source component, is part of a system, and so when 'improving' the performance of your turntable (e.g. as a result of using an effective record weight), then you have to consider how said 'improvement' will impact, sonically, on the rest of your system (and indeed on that belonging to anyone else following your advice), as at the end of the day, it's the sound of the system you're listening to, and how it presents music, not just the sound of the turntable!

As an example, you could fit a new cartridge to your turntable, which (measurably) is technically superior to what you had before, but in turn has the increased resolution upset the balance of your system, by revealing faults elsewhere or created a more clinical sound that, to your ears, isn't as musically satisfying?

Now, I'm not saying for one moment that's what's happened in Simon's or Mark's system, as a result of them using their chosen style of record weight, indeed I'm sure that the improvements claimed are genuine, and with no adverse side-effects.

All I am saying, however, is that when making improvements (genuine or otherwise) to a specific component, it's very easy to upset the overall balance of your system, therefore you have to think very carefully about the knock-on effect of any so-called improvements carried out, and certainly that you cannot assume that the success you've obtained, by using a specific type of record weight, will be automatically realised in someone else's turntable or system, simply because, superficially, it makes 'technical sense'.

Marco.

[Clive]

Absolutely Marco. I'll try not to use the word synergy, indeed I think equilibrium fits rather better!

[Rare Bird]

I hope you find it Andre! In theory you're right about heavy weights IMO but as Marco's been saying, does it really matter? Maybe the benefit is so great on some decks that the downsides aren't relevant. Then again on other decks if rumble is excited to such a degree clearly it's the wrong route for those decks.

What I will say is that I don't believe most TT manufacturers calculate the platter weight and bearing load. Some even offer heavier optional platters whilst using the same bearing.

It's not so much the increase in rumble figures that bothers me it's the welfare of the bearing & motor that does.. After carefull consideration over a couple of old second hand decks i was looking into buying, i decided to go for one that has a thin aluminium platter that only weighs in at 1.2Kg together with acrylic platter that weighs in at 0.3Kg..

As mentioned i can't find my Michell clamp so can't comment on the weight.. These items, as a combination don't weight that much & im happy with that, i always bear in mind that you have an additional weight upto around 200grm for vinyl record ontop of that.

At the end of the day it's Peace of mind more than anything knowing there's not a big load for that poor motor to deal with on start up's..

The amount of heavy platter decks ive bought in the past that have required motor changes is beggars belief.. I try to avoid any of this malarky in the future.

[sq225917]

Therefore, if your theory, when put into practice, were true in all instances, then why didn't I hear any negative sonic impact (and indeed the exact opposite) when using heavy record weights with the D/D, high-mass string/tape drives, and idler T/Ts I've previously mentioned?

Marco.

Because the small increase in rumble was masked by the improvements you heard in other areas. But you could have those improvements that come from the clamping without the increased noise that comes from the weight.

Of course a person might consider that increased noise has some magical, beneficial properties. I can see but not understand the viewpoint that says 'I will add any form of distortion that I like the sound of' for me, noise is noise.

[Marco]

Because the small increase in rumble was masked by the improvements you heard in other areas.

Perhaps, if indeed that were the case. However, you're missing the point.

If the end result is that there are no audible downsides, and that the sound, and consequently, one's appreciation of the music is increased (as was the case when I did it, and also agreed by two other people present) by using a high-mass record weight on, say, a Thorens TD-124, in someone's system other than yours, then the addition of any (inaudible) rumble is irrelevant.

Which is more desirable: a result that measures better, technically, but sounds worse to the listener, or the opposite? Your argument about noise is also somewhat spurious. Valve amps are measurably 'noisier' than solid-state amps, yet to my ears (and those of many others), despite that fact, many sound superior, musically, to their solid-state counterparts.

The fact is, all that matters is the end result, as dictated by the system's overall sound (not simply that of the turntable), and what the listener hears (and enjoys) in his or her system, with his or her favourite music. Anything else is of secondary importance!

The problem is, you're too obsessed with measurements, when they're not all that should be considered

Marco.

[Clive]

All this talk of TT weights has encouraged me to re-try a couple. I'll give them a go on the 301 later. The one of the left is a "Grippa", it's the lighter of the two and is tightened down on the record using the knurled brass knob (can I use such words?).

[seoirse2002]

Dunno if im being a tad behind the door but the whole idea of putting even more weight onto a bearing let alone stress on the motor is something ive never contemplating doing! ive always gone the lightweight Michell type clamp route (Even though im fuming at the min as i have a NOS Michell 'Focus One' clamp boxed that i cannot find anywhere in the house for he life of me)

Me too,I use the Michell clamp,but not on all records....anybody got any thoughts/experience of using a clamp on a Saturn Transcriptor? just got it and havent a clue how to set it up....could do with some help actually...

ps
I lost my clamp once and discovered that the wife had "put it away"

[Marco]

All this talk of TT weights has encouraged me to re-try a couple. I'll give them a go on the 301 later. The one of the left is a "Grippa", it's the lighter of the two and is tightened down on the record using the knurled brass knob (can I use such words?).

Nice one. I'd be interested in the results.

Incidentally, before Simon, or anyone else, thinks that I'm the world's biggest fan of noisy rumble-in the-jungle (lol), let me reiterate that what I'm getting at is choosing the best compromise, simply because, in audio, there is ALWAYS such a choice to make, unless one mistakenly believes that there exists a 'perfect' and universal solution to all or any specific problem.

Therefore, allow me to put it this way:

If, from the use of a high-mass record weight, on a specific turntable (not mine), I hear greater vocal intelligibility, superior detail retrieval, and overall the music is rendered as sounding more realistic and enjoyable (as it did when I tried it, compared with no weight, or using a lighter weight), do I forget about all that, and instead worry about some measured rumble, the effects of which I can't hear?

No, what I do is choose the best compromise, simply because the negative effect of the noise measured, caused by the increased (but inaudible) rumble, is significantly outweighed by the sonic improvement gained by using the high-mass record weight.

Simples!!

Therefore, in summary, the heavy record weight must be fixing more issues (in other areas) than it's creating, in terms of increased rumble... Excellent - we have now reached the best compromise

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

Me too,I use the Michell clamp,but not on all records....anybody got any thoughts/experience of using a clamp on a Saturn Transcriptor? just got it and havent a clue how to set it up....could do with some help actually...

Michell clamps no probs with the 'Saturn'.. Any probs with the deck give Micheal a buzz he's a nice bloke.

http://www.transcriptors.net/spyder/saturn