Listener fatigue

[gilesw]

So I've rebuilt my old Naim based class A hi-fi and replaced it with a dac and computer audio setup and a class D amp. While it sounds far better in terms of soundstage, separation and spacial placement and musicality (cough) I have some problems with the treble. After listening to music with a lot of hi hats or vocals I notice my ears a bit rather than just relaxing and I'm trying to work out the cause. So a couple of reasons I think are:-

1.The Naim somehow filters the higher frequencies, people talk about the top end and vocals being silky with Naim.
2.My muddy class A Denon AV amp was masking some of the top end.
3.The metallic tweeters in my Monitor audio silver 8i's have always been harsh, I just haven't noticed before.
4.Computer audio + class D amp creates a digital sounding system.

I found an interesting document while googling the problem:-

http://www.teachmeaudio.com/producti...audio-spectrum

So I've got a couple of things I'm planning on trying:-

1.Run an eq or filter on my audio player to reduce the 3khz band. (done)

http://osxdaily.com/2012/05/18/equal...udio-mac-os-x/

2.Add some sort of analogue component into my system to make it warmer? tube pre-amp? expensive!

3.Demo some speakers with a softer tweeter:-

http://www.epos-acoustics.com/products/epic-5/

[purite audio]

Try turning the tweeters so that they do not directly face you, ie not toed in, output is generally far less off axis, also do you sit against the rear wall, if you do try some absorption behind your head.
Keith.

[StanleyB]

The Bushmaster was partly designed to counter act that problem. You tried the Bushmaster already but I guess that you didn't pick up on it when you did your comparison between the two DACs you had on trial. The frequency band from the Bushmaster is not enhanced in any way as far as the tops is concerned.

A lot of people get attracted to the enhanced treble in some DACs which give the impression of a cleaner clearer and more detailed signal. But in reality it's a lack of low frequency detail in the signal that gives that impression. The enhanced treble does get fatiguing after a while.

I first noticed this problem when I had a Benchmark DAC1. The bass on my NS1000M was hardly moving but the mids and treble were ear piercing. On my HD800 headphones the same thing happens when used with most headamps and DACs. This has caused many HD800 owners to quickly part with their headphones.

You might have to try a set of phono leads that are tops shy. Or you can try soldering a small value capacitor at the output end of the phono leads just before the plug. It would be a case of trying different values from 1uF or lower.

[Martinh]

Hi Giles,

Ive been through exactly the same thing myself and have now got it just right for my ears and room.

Here's what I did:

- Bought a Bushmaster DAC, which has a very smooth top end, compared to my old DacMagic.
- Reduced the speaker treble output a bit by adding an extra resistor in series with the tweeter.
- Played around with the EQ of my music player (JRiver). This involved dropping the level a few db at around 1-3 KHz to reduce the slight mid-forward balance.

I used a RTA program and decent external microphone on my tablet to check that the resulting response was nice and flat at the seating position. Sound is more laid back, not so exciting, but more natural and less fatigueing. Result . Maybe it's not the done thing, HiFi wise, but probably saved me ££££s by not having to change kit.

p.s. I did have some MA speakers a while back, but they had to go. Too forward for extended listening

[AlanS]

So I've rebuilt my old Naim based class A hi-fi and replaced it with a dac and computer audio setup and a class D amp. While it sounds far better in terms of soundstage, separation and spacial placement and musicality (cough) I have some problems with the treble. After listening to music with a lot of hi hats or vocals I notice my ears a bit rather than just relaxing and I'm trying to work out the cause. So a couple of reasons I think are:-

1.The Naim somehow filters the higher frequencies, people talk about the top end and vocals being silky with Naim.
2.My muddy class A Denon AV amp was masking some of the top end.
3.The metallic tweeters in my Monitor audio silver 8i's have always been harsh, I just haven't noticed before.
4.Computer audio + class D amp creates a digital sounding system.

I found an interesting document while googling the problem:-

http://www.teachmeaudio.com/producti...audio-spectrum

So I've got a couple of things I'm planning on trying:-

1.Run an eq or filter on my audio player to reduce the 3khz band. (done)

http://osxdaily.com/2012/05/18/equal...udio-mac-os-x/

2.Add some sort of analogue component into my system to make it warmer? tube pre-amp? expensive!

3.Demo some speakers with a softer tweeter:-

http://www.epos-acoustics.com/products/epic-5/

I haven't heard any Naim for ages but cannot remember anyone say "the top end and vocals being silky with Naim" sort of the opposite. IIR

[gilesw]

Very interesting, I'm using soundflower so I can plumb in any AU plugin, I'm going to try a few of these:-

http://getthatprosound.com/16-of-the...-in-the-world/

I'm afraid regarding the bushmaster I found the treble too prominent and the problem was even worse, especially with my poor spdif sources. The young is a different beast in terms of soundstage and the treble, but then it's stack load of cash. The bass range on the bushmaster was superb I would say that.. I'm going to have a wiggle around with my speaker positions and I've bought some focus rings too for the speakers so the quest continues.

g.

[awkwardbydesign]

Giles, I'd go with point No.4, plus point No. 3. I have a little T-amp, and although it's great for analysis, I find it very fatiguing after a while. I also prefer analogue over digital, valves over SS, class A over class B, etc. So take my comments in context.

[John]

Many reasons for fatique it something I worked hard on in the years mostly via trail and error to get right and made lots of mistakes on the way
All the suggestions given are good but might be worth exploring a few other options
Think about your room use some pictures and carpets to help defuse the sound
I found using felt (thicker the better) around the tweeter could really help with defractions when using standard speakers
Cabling might play apart too The Mark Grant cables are very neutral and clean and many people use them in some really great systems
Some speakers are known for their harsh treble if you every buy again hear them in your home first and play music that you know cause issues for you.
It can be a long road getting rid of htese issues but they can be cured

[purite audio]

Cables and tweeter material won't make any difference, dacs should have a perfectly flat frequency response, the Young certainly does, so it won't be that, if you room is sparsely furnished, perhaps if you have a hard floor or bare walls, that could easily exaggerate the HF, if you try a plug in use one that knocks a few db off at 6-8 kHz and report back.
KR Keith.
If you can measure your room ,that would reveal all!

[Audioman]

1.The Naim somehow filters the higher frequencies, people talk about the top end and vocals being silky with Naim.
2.My muddy class A Denon AV amp was masking some of the top end.
3.The metallic tweeters in my Monitor audio silver 8i's have always been harsh, I just haven't noticed before.
4.Computer audio + class D amp creates a digital sounding system.

2,3 and 4 probably. Can't remember a Naim being silky smooth. Would have expected it to add to the fatiguing sound.