Synergy

[RichB]

i dunno, describing it is 'je ne sais quoi...'

some call it mojo, others may call it synergy or kismet or va-va voom!

I've kept out of this thread so far because I'm simply not smart enough to be able to describe it. I know when i hear it.

[Clive]

I'd say that it is confusing to call that subjective. The cook is objectively measuring with his eyes. He would be measuring using different parameters to others, he'd be using colour and bubbling rate and smell.

His 'art' and subjectivity will come in when he draws on experience and chooses what colour and bubbling rate etc gave him the results he enjoyed last time.

So he is measuring objectively but is subjectively choosing which value of measurement he considers 'correct'. I suppose that's where the emotion mentioned comes in.

Following this line of logic, which I'm happy to do...when we hear a sound we prefer over another we tend to say this is a subjective view. We could say that providing there is agreement that a difference exists, then we are objectively measuring some system parameters without a defined scale.

For what we call synergy to occur there has to be a reason for, it's not foo, magic or whatever. The reasons may be complex or not even fully understood but there are reasons.

[YNWaN]

No, the cook is judging in a subjective manner (an experienced and trained one perhaps, but still subjective) unless he/she is using a measuring cup, scales or a meat thermometer etc., then it is objective.

[awkwardbydesign]

I find it curious that measuring sound with ears is subjective, but measuring sound with eyes is objective. Making static something that is dynamic.

[Marco]

Excellent discussion, chaps - I agree with most of what's been written

I would also add that the much sought after 'synergy' can often be obtained by judiciously selecting and using equipment from the one manufacturer, as more often than not said equipment will have been designed together from the ground up, and thus will perform optimally in that context.

That effect is certainly revealed in all its glory, for example, with the combination of my Ortofon tonearm/SPU cartridge/ST-80SE MC step-up transformer

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Trial and error = not good imho.

In the good old days quality dealers and distributors put systems together and they worked out the base line synergy in order to make it easier for the customer. Of coarse variables like room acoustics and taste in music/presentation were factors but for the most part the work was already done the course mapped out. The best example of this - outside of Linn/Naim -was the Audio Innovations, Snell, Voyd, Audio Note cables system that Peter Q put together. The systems worked beautifully together and it was really a case of whether one liked the system or not whether one bought into it or not. PQ under the guise of Audio Note UK pretty much still does the same thing today.

The difficulty back then and today occurs when those brave individuals go off piste and try and put unlikely combinations together, throwing conventional wisdom and specifications out the window or an amalgamation of What HiFi 5 star reviews together in hope of synergy (1)- the end results are usually a mess. Its also I feel more the case - these days - that some dealers don't bother experimenting with components to be able to present base line set ups to their customers and often there is no rhyme nor reason to the components distributors take in to add to their portfolios - as they don't work together. I say that based on observation and listening experience.

I think it unfair to target any system/set of components regardless of price if it is not well put together and if it is, quite often negativity expressed here - in my opinion - is relating to presentation not system mismatches, which some are mistaking for a lack of synergy. The system is working well but they don't like the sound. Make no mistake this can still be the case with set ups that are working well.

I feel that many that are doing this are basing their opinions on hearing at a show - and we all know that most dealers/distributors don't make much effort to get this right - rather than years of experience trying different combinations together in a room/environment they know well.

Synergy is usually achieved by taking into account fundamentals like power to speaker sensitivity - room size and tonality blending. The cooking analogy is a good one.

(1) A good example would be mixing Cyrus with Monitor Audio - not a synergistic match in my view unless one likes an in your face presentation.

[John]

Trail and error very costly IMHO
But this is where forums and friends come in

[Spectral Morn]

Trail and error very costly IMHO
But this is where forums and friends come in useful

Agreed with the fist point.

However sadly forums and friends are at times - and lets be clear I am not pointing at AOS here - a case of the deaf/ignorant leading the deaf. Well meaning deaf/ignorant ones but deaf and ignorant all the same. I have stumbled upon examples of this sort of thing many times and the advice been given is very poor to say the least and will end up in an even bigger mess than already exists. I know the above will irk some but I am telling it as I see have heard it.

In my view trial and error is a mugs game unless you have a bottomless wallet or an endless supply of equipment to play with for free.

Common sense, experience and watching specifications will stand most people in good stead.

[John]

Well to be honest i think the best way is to hear as many systems as you can, hear what possible, then hear stuff in your own enviornment and do not make rash choices.

[Clive]

Common sense, experience and watching specifications will stand most people in good stead.

This is more what I had in mind at the start of the thread. The magical synergy we speak of can be more easily found is some account of specs is taken as some sense applied to matching and yes, plently of listening to different setups. I think what we have though is not so much any magical synergy, it more a profound lack of synergy all too often.