Synergy

[Clive]

On an amplifier thread recently I was airing some thoughts I have about the use of the word synergy. I feel it needs a thread to discuss the topic. Please, please appreciate this is not subjective vs objective. I'm very firmly in the subjective camp though I do like to understand technically what works and what doesn't; my final opinions are always formed by listening.

Saying two products have great synergy when paired together is useful in that we then have an idea they complement each. This is fine as far as it goes. Where possible I would prefer we went a stage further as synergy can come from various characteristics. The point to this is that if we 100% rely on having to try every combination of hi-fi components to arrive at what synergises we'll spend all of our time doing this and not listening to music.

Some examples of reasons for synergy or a lack thereof:

- Impedance mis-match, eg high output impedance into low input impedance
- Gain, eg high gain preamp into a high sensitivity power amp would be problematic
- Mirror image frequency response; eg where a speaker has a tilted response, the amp may need the mirror image of this. Ideally both would be flat-ish but where amps work well only with specific speakers, this can be a reason for unexpectedly variable results
- Speaker efficiency; amp power matches the speaker requirements
- Speaker load; the amp can deliver clean signal (current) into the speaker
- Noise; eg a hi-efficiency speaker is very picky about noise/hum levels

Synergy is used as a convenient shortcut to describe items above and more, sometimes it's contextually obvious what the reason is for the synergy but sometimes it's not. Understanding the reason will help others to for example select a different speaker to pair with a particular amp.

Maybe I'm being to pedantic but I feel a little understanding of what's happening is useful - rather like knowing not to start a car in 6th gear. It's easy to discover it doesn't work but by thinking about the effects of gearing you can work out that you can't start in 5th, 4th or 3rd either. I suppose you could search for synegy and find a car that will start in 6th gear.

[MartinT]

I wish there were such simple rules for ideal equipment combinations, but I think the reason we have users at all stages of system building from the hesitant starter to the deliriously happy is that:

a) it takes so much trial and error, including wrong turns
b) it takes time to adjust to each change
c) you get more practised at knowing what it is you like in a system
d) the opportunity to hear different components can be quite limited
e) environments differ (room, house members, mains quality, sound intrusions, preferred volume)
f) budgets vary

In my mind, synergy is the symbiotic relationship of system components, room, musical tastes and personal preference in order to achieve far more than the sum of their parts.

Not sure if that helps, but I'm trying to move the topic forwards as I think it's a good one to discuss.

[Clive]

Great points Martin. I'm guilty of simplifying my explanation of synergy which I was suggesting is often seen too simply! Environmental and preference factors are equally important factors in addition to the technical ones.

[jandl100]

A really tricky subject!

I've a well-deserved reputation for trying different kit, but I still don't think I have a clue as to what it is that causes the "hey, now that's how the music should go" effect when the system suddenly jumps up a level or three.

With my speakers, I tried well over 20 different amps of all types (ss, valve, class A / AB / D - hybrids, high power, low power ...) and enjoyed many of them.

Then as just another step in my happy boxswapping journey I bought a Parasound A21 power amp.
Wowzer! - synergy strikes like a lightning bolt! That's how it should go!

Why? I have no idea.
OK, so it's a bit of a bruiser in terms of wpc, but I've used other ss amps of even higher power, so it's not that.

I've also heard it in other systems ... oh dear, results vary from pretty good to OK to not very special at all to 'urgh, turn that off, will you?'.

Something about the Parasound A21 / MBL 116F combo just does the biz. Others who have visited agree that it is very special, so it's not just me.

Synergy! yes!

[Welder]

What implications does the word synergy have when applied to mechanical and electrical systems?

I think Martin is correct and synergy describes a system that is more than the sum of its parts. I don’t think stereo systems can do that tbh. The performance is always going to be governed by the weakest link in the chain
I agree with your list in general Clive but need to point out these are measurable parameters.

[MartinT]

The dictionary agrees with us, John:

Synergy: the interaction of elements that when combined produce a total effect that is greater than the sum of the individual elements, contributions, etc.; synergism.

Your suggestion that stereo systems can't do that is interesting, but I don't think I agree with it. On too many occasions, I've heard a combination of components that just produce magic, more so than any individual item when used elsewhere. Perhaps Clive has it with yin/yang, each-offsetting-the-other's attributes idea.

[Welder]

The dictionary agrees with us, John:



Your suggestion that stereo systems can't do that is interesting, but I don't think I agree with it. On too many occasions, I've heard a combination of components that just produce magic, more so than any individual item when used elsewhere. Perhaps Clive has it with yin/yang, each-offsetting-the-other's attributes idea.

Yep, quite happy with the definition Martin.
It's the magic bit I'm not comfortable with.
Certainly you can maximise a systems performance with careful matching of components and call that synergy but the system will still only perform to the weakest links strength.

[Clive]

need to point out these are measurable parameters.

Indeed the items on my non-exhaustive list are measurable. As a subjectivist I don't discount objective elements where they make sense, it just that the result are more important to me than a bunch of measurement. Maybe where we'll get to a point with this topic where we can only say there is a certain magic that happens, such as with Jerry's Parasound amp. Could this be where we aren't measuring the right parameters so we can only say it's magic because we don't understand the reasons?

I'm desperately trying for this not to become subjective vs objective......

[Welder]

Indeed the items on my non-exhaustive list are measurable. As a subjectivist I don't discount objective elements where they make sense, it just that the result are more important to me than a bunch of measurement. Maybe where we'll get to a point with this topic where we can only say there is a certain magic that happens, such as with Jerry's Parasound amp. Could this be where we aren't measuring the right parameters so we can only say it's magic because we don't understand the reasons?

I'm desperately trying for this not to become subjective vs objective......

I appreciate this.

I personally dont call events I cant explain, magic.

[Reid Malenfant]

Indeed the items on my non-exhaustive list are measurable. As a subjectivist I don't discount objective elements where they make sense, it just that the result are more important to me than a bunch of measurement. Maybe where we'll get to a point with this topic where we can only say there is a certain magic that happens, such as with Jerry's Parasound amp. Could this be where we aren't measuring the right parameters so we can only say it's magic because we don't understand the reasons?

I think it's like flavours of food

While no-one can agree on how things taste, well we can't as we are all different! We can often agree that salmon & broccoli goes together very well indeed

None of it is measurable, or even if it is then how do you define it? But put certain things together & some magic can indeed happen. Even if you have no reason to think that it would given the ingredients.

It's the same as colours. We are all taught at school that this is red, that is green, & that is brown. But at the end of the day, while we may well agree on the names, we can't in any way prove we are seeing the same thing!

We just agree on a name for it

Damn, I'm getting hungry