Stan's New Dac - any reviews yet?

[StanleyB]

I clearly don't understand what audiophiles mean by pace, rhythm and timing, because they clearly cannot mean that electronics change the pace, rhythm and timing of the actual musical performance. Perhaps Stan can explain it to me.

Explaining things like that means absolutely nothing, unless in the possession of an example to audition. The now famous MOD21 of mine is a typical example of how the change of a few components can affect the PRaT. But without a TC-7510 to play with, you are at a disadvantage in terms of finding out how components can affect PRaT.

[leo]

I find its mainly tone and signature altered regarding components.
Also some types/brands of capacitors can give the impression of adding a particular signature, some types make bass sound slow, even overblown and muddy yet others add HF distortion which we call harshness and brightness.

If you have a bunch of different brand components in the same value you can't assure they'll all sound the same used in a particular circuit

Theres a lot involved with electronic components , I honestly wish they didn't make much difference, it would make the job of fine tuning redundant

[Covenant]

You love it really Leo........

[kalozois100]

Marco, I can tune an instrument to a professional strobe tuner, then put on a digital source, any digital source, from the cheapest mp3 player up, and play along, in perfect tune (well, as perfect as my imperfect musical instruments get), every time.

Not only is the timing of the music unchanged, the smallest nuance of pitch - the subtlest measure of accurate time reproduction of music - is audibly unchanged. Don't take my word for it. Ask any guitarist of an age to have played along with records and tape how that experience changed with CD. Don't even make it a leading question. You will get the same answer.

This is, as I said to Stan, a semantic disagreement, not a technical one. I clearly don't understand what audiophiles mean by pace, rhythm and timing, because they clearly cannot mean that electronics change the pace, rhythm and timing of the actual musical performance. Perhaps Stan can explain it to me.

Tim

ofcourse Stan should answer this as its his invite however I'll contribute how I understand it. Take a visual correlation...
If a speeding car is coming towards me from my right side but I am looking straight ahead as it whizzes past and the someone asks me to describe the car I can offer very little.
Now the same car approches from the right side at the same speed but I turn my head towards it and pan it and see it for alot longer as it drives past, infront and follwing it to my left . I can now say clearly what colour it was, make and model and even who the driver was!!
Yet the car in both instances was the same. This is how I experiece the listening to a cd(in the first instance of the car) over ten years ago compared to present day listening( in the second instance of the car) .
Many years ago a friend and I had a discussion about "the cd" and wether it was capable of great sound but that technology was not yet refined to capture it. My question was answered with Stans dac after the modifications - and yes it is capable in my "ears" now. But, and this is a big but - " Everyone has their own set of ears"

[tfarney]

As I said to Stan, this is a semantic issue, not a real one. Where I'm stumbling, I'm afraid, is on the term PRaT, and the over-zealous descriptions I've read from time to time over the years. I don't doubt for a moment that amplification and digital conversion can impact transient reponse, bass control, tone, etc. In fact, I know it is true from my own experience. But I also know that they do not audibly alter the actual timing of the musical performance. You can record a track on state-of-the-art equipment, play it back through really cheap equipment, and it will still sync with the rest of the tracks, the rest of the performance on the tape or file. This is not speculation.

But I'm being too literal. My bad.

Tim

[kalozois100]

As I said to Stan, this is a semantic issue, not a real one. Where I'm stumbling, I'm afraid, is on the term PRaT, and the over-zealous descriptions I've read from time to time over the years. I don't doubt for a moment that amplification and digital conversion can impact transient reponse, bass control, tone, etc. In fact, I know it is true from my own experience. But I also know that they do not audibly alter the actual timing of the musical performance. You can record a track on state-of-the-art equipment, play it back through really cheap equipment, and it will still sync with the rest of the tracks, the rest of the performance on the tape or file. This is not speculation.

But I'm being too literal. My bad.

Tim

Although the physics of the matter may be as you say it is(I'm no expert) that the actual timing is unaffacted, the emotional response from the now more emotionally/more detailed audio for the listener gives rise to the illussion and impression that it does.

[tfarney]

Although the physics of the matter may be as you say it is(I'm no expert) that the actual timing is unaffacted, the emotional response from the now more emotionally/more detailed audio for the listener gives rise to the illussion and impression that it does.

I've yet to experience that particular illusion. I can count out a tune and play along with a cd boom box or a studio monitoring system. The tempo feels no slower on the former, even though the transient response and dynamics are much faster on the latter.

Tim

[Marco]

I would agree with Kalozois. It's impossible to accurately describe or explain these things, but his post for me sums it up quite nicely.

But I'm being too literal.

With respect, Tim, I think you are a bit, as you do have quite a 'literal', 'black & white' way of looking at hi-fi when I would suggest that shades of grey are perhaps more appropriate.

As Kalozois says, it's not about the physics of the matter - no audio equipment can alter the actual timing of the musical performance recorded onto the disc or record; this is an impossibility, so you're right in that respect, but I believe it is possible (and I've heard the effect with my own ears) that certain equipment through judicious component selection and implementation of such can allow the ear to perceive better pitch and timing (pace, rhythm or whatever) by ensuring that this aspect of the musical performance is more faithfully reproduced.

Therefore, what it's about really is accuracy to the original sound (and musical performance) recorded onto the disc or record, and not any magical altering of the impossible. This is why that measurements only tell half the story when designing equipment - it is absolutely essential for a designer to listen and tune equipment by ear, and use his experience accordingly, to ensure that the other half of the story is told in order that the final result enjoyed by the listener is a truly musical one, and not just some bland (seemingly 'accurate' from measurements) sound, devoid of colour and emotion (that's the colour and emotion originally recorded onto the disc or record, not a by-product of the equipment's sonic signature), and the reproduction of a musical performance that's not believable in a real sense.

Quite simply, inferior equipment will often miss fine details which contribute to the successful discerning of pitch and timing by the ear, or not. People like Stan have the ability to eke out that extra few percent of music in recordings with their equipment designs because they know what to listen for - when to turn off the oscilloscope, discard other objective measurement apparatus, and have faith in their ears during the process of tuning the sound of their equipment, and crucially, they know what components to use or which part of the circuit to alter in order to create the effect that is necessary.

It's the latter that often defines a great DAC from merely an 'adequately good' DAC, or one that simply goes through the motions in music and relays this to the listener in an efficient but ultimately un-involving way, and one which connects the listener closest to the musical performance recorded onto the disc and gives him or her Goosebumps. That 'magic', in my experience, is often missed when an equipment designer does more measuring than listening and as such his designs appeal more to the head than to the heart... But then maybe some people like that?

Marco.

[Marco]

I've yet to experience that particular illusion. I can count out a tune and play along with a cd boom box or a studio monitoring system. The tempo feels no slower on the former, even though the transient response and dynamics are much faster on the latter.

Maybe that's because, as a musician, your brain can successfully fill in the gaps in the musical message (as a result of poor reproduction of the pitch and timing of the musical performance recorded originally onto the disc) missed by inferior DACs, or whatever, that other people who aren't trained as musicians require to be provided by better equipment?

Marco.

[Labarum]

Now here is a mystery.

I foolishly promised my 9 year old son, who had just graduated from a half size to a 3/4 cello that he could have a 4/4 cello when his teacher said he could handle it. That came round rather sooner than I had hoped. Given the rate of his improvement it was not worth scrimping on a cello. He is 23 and still has it. I grit my teeth and took my chequebook to the violin shop.

I was also confidently told the bow also could make a significant difference to the quality of the sound. This I found difficult to believe. After choosing a cello with the help of his teacher we moved to the bow room. The shop assistant pulled out four bows he though might go well with the chosen cello. My son played all four and ranked them in price order!

We took two away on approval, and he ended up with the more expensive of the two - £450 14 years ago. (Don't ask how much the cello cost - price of a small car!)

Now why should this be? Why should the bow make such a difference? Why should a 9 year old boy be able to rank the bows? (I too could hear the difference) There is something very odd going on here. So with HiFi boxes.

Pace
Rhythm
Attack
Timing

Call it what you will. Musicality will always be illusive, but equipment design should follow the science.