It's great to be 'famous'!!

[DSJR]

The P9 may come across as a souped up P3 concept, but it IS a great and highly valid top end turntable, even if it doesn't float Techie owner's boats. That expensive ceramic platter wasn't done for show you know...

I just looked at the link to the origianl thread - WHERE do direct dives vibrate? The thing is, they don't! There may be an issue with the rapid servo regulator supply frequency/jitter? in the techie? but all these tweaks probably get rid of it at a stroke, and the Funk platter has answered any questions of the heavy platter changing things in the way the motor works.

Dynamic wow on belt driven decks is a HUGE issue for some. My way of dealing with it is to recommend a low tracking weight cartridge if possible, so the drive isn't loaded up too much. I know this doesn't solve the problem, but it certainly helps.

Too many blinkered idiots in audiophoolery, and if it takes one to know one, then so be it Never say never in anything - leaves you a get-out clause......

[synsei]

Its just someone else's opinion man.

That is it in a nutshell...

[DaveK]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, even when they're wrong .

[DSJR]

Regarding the Rega's running fast...

I still have and use the Linn strobe/alignment protractor. This uses a hand held battery operated light at 300Hz frequency and I found it invaluable in getting LP12's to proper speed (having a little technique for getting playing, rather than static speed absolutely spot-on), making LP and CD comparisons a doddle, but that's another story. I can say without any prejudice that ALL Rega 2's and 3's up until the P3 in 2000 or thereabouts, ran slightly fast AND THIS WAS AUDIBLE as well as clearly measurable. Roy Gandy dismissed it out of hand at the time, but I'm sure I'm correct when I say that the fixed-motor upgrade they introduced, with fresh pulley stuck to the motor spindle, seemed to bring the speed accuracy into line. haven't played with the new ones, but I'm sure the above is history now..

I only mention this as my findings are easily proved with the correct accurate strobe and a collection of LP's and partnering CD's. Until 2000 or therabouts, no doubt of it.....

[gx502]

Your thoughts please, gentleman, on Marc's (continued) somewhat misguided ramblings?

Marco.

IMHO (and in terms of what I have experienced), I feel that SL1200 modded or un-modded represents great value. Its a real shame that production has stopped, since the SL1200 offers the end-user plenty of choice, and they can take it to whatever level their interest or budget allows.

(In stock form, I think you just need to choose your cartridge very carefully, since it can be a bit hit-and-miss.)

I suppose Marco's SL1200, and some others on this forum represent the pinnacle of what can be done with a SL1200. I still think when the costs are added up they still represent great vfm, or SPPV in AoS-lingo.

My own SL1200 (Sa750d, TS-STD-PSU, MN bearing, Kontra-B, LH-6000) is probably very much "middle of the road" in AoS terms. But last year having attended a hifi show, and listened to some mega-buck off-the-shelf TTs, I came to the conclusion that I am not really missing all that much from my own setup.

I also own a (1987)LP12/Hercules/RB1000, so I am not really tied to any particular camp. At the end of the day, we only need to please ourselves. (Also if you price up a brand new LP12 to a decent spec level, the cost is pretty astronomical!!! You would be able to have carte-blanche in terms of similar budget if deployed towards a high-spec SL1200.)

But yes, based on my limited experience the SL1200, can definitely punch above its weight at whatever level you spec it out to.

Summary I find myself in agreement with Marco, much more than Marc..



EDIT: i don't really agree with the need to argue absolutes, if you prefer a Linn, Rega, Technics, Thorens, whatever that's all fine. So long as you are happy yourself at the end of the day, and are able to enjoy the music.

[chelsea]

It does seem the bloke has lived with these decks rega/technics for a fair while so at least he has real world experience of his likes/dislikes.

[Audioman]

Just to be absolutely clear, specifically which T/T are you talking about, Paul?

Marco.

Rega P9 ! I will expand on that in saying it is a good package at it's price point and has the advantage of being as near to plug and play a top end TT can be. It still has the Rega house sound and for similar money I think others are far better to my ears such as a Mitchel Orbe or possibly a modified Techie with the same money lavished on it. I think you have to be looking at something more upmarket in making comparisons either positive or negative against your particular deck. I'm sure Marc's main point is that he would rather have something good of the shelf than spend vast amounts on mods a point which many of us would agree with. His anti Technics comments appear to be based on the standard deck or a more lightly modified version which would cover the versions offered by KAB, Sound Hi-Fi and Zu.

[Marco]

Some of you guys are still continuing to miss the point. Whether Marc loves Regas, Michells or Fischer Price turntables, is moot – I really don’t care. Yes, he’s entitled to his opinion, but that’s not the point either...

The point (and let’s hope it sinks in this time) is that in this argument the concept of 'just buying a proper high-end turntable in the first place' is fallacious, simply because doing that will NOT result in one ending up with the SAME thing!

Marc uses this analogy:

Would you rather own a Hyundai Excel that has been tuned to the hilt using $20,000 worth of parts from a dozen different companies from all over the world? Or would you rather just own a Porsche Cayman S? I'll take the Porsche... and the P9, please.

Ok, what if instead you wanted (and indeed owned) a very rare sports car, that for you had something unique and special, and that car was only made in tiny quantities, such as, for example, the Lamborghini Walter Wolf Countach, of which only three were made – and only one of those cars, for you, would do?

In that situation, would you be satisfied instead with a Porsche Cayman S, or indeed ANY other car?? No, of course you wouldn’t! And that’s my whole point...

A Technics SL-1210 turntable, modified in a unique way, with bespoke components, is my (and others) Lamborghini Walter Wolf Countach. For those interested, here's the chap in question:



Therefore, just like a Porsche Cayman S would never satisfy the Lamborghini aficionado, neither would a P9 (or any belt-drive turntable) satisfy the bespoke modified SL-1210 aficionado (and also someone whose ears are attuned to the specific way that direct-drive T/Ts present music). That last bit is very important! How many brand new 'off the shelf' high-end D/D T/Ts are there to chose from currently - and how much do they cost in comparison to a modded Techy?? Think about it.

Thus one cannot simply 'just buy a proper high-end turntable in the first place', simply because there is nothing else out there available 'off the shelf', like a bespoke modified SL-1210, so doing what Marc suggests would not result in giving modified SL-1210 aficionados what they wanted!

The point of this exercise was not to "bitch" about Marc’s legitimate and justified turntable preferences, but rather to expose the fallaciousness of his car analogy, in reference to highly modifying a Technics direct-drive turntable.

Are we getting it now, chaps?

Marco.

[Marco]

Dynamic wow on belt driven decks is a HUGE issue for some.

Count me in, with bells on!!

I can hear it straight away (and its effect on music reproduced) every time I listen to low or medium-mass belt-drive T/Ts, including Regas.

Direct-drive T/Ts are by no means perfect (after all, all T/Ts are a compromise of some sort), *but* the effect on music of dynamic wow is completely absent - and *that* aspect of music reproduction is extremely important to me, and why I could not live with any T/T which exhibited the former trait.

Couple that with my love for SPUs, which track at 4g, and you can see why, for me, only T/Ts with sufficient 'balls' (D/Ds, idlers or high-mass string drives), to overcome the effect of dynamic wow, would ever cut it.

This is also a point that Marc completely misses, as 95% of what I suspect he'd consider as being 'proper high-end T/Ts', are low or medium-mass belt-drives!

Too many blinkered idiots in audiophoolery.

Indeed!

Marco.

[Gazjam]

Whoa nice lambo!

It didn't really come across that way Marco to be honest mate, hence the replies you got.
Its not that we didn't get it it was just a bit open ended and ambigious what you were meaning?

You cleared it up though just there. Cool.


PS This is coming from an ex Planar 3 owner!