Amplifier advice for new Harbeth Compact 7s

[JJack]

Ah, I've been breaking in my new Harbeth 7s - wonderful speakers - and thought I'd ask what amplifiers might be recommended for them.

I'm aware of Harbeth's official ("anything that works to spec") approach, so I'm digging for a little more insight.

I'm currently running them on Class A 25 watt KT88 monos from Cary, with a Conrad-Johnson preamp. Common US components, these are geared toward an overall warm sound, but I think I'd like to try something with a little more grip on the bass as well as more outright power. I recognize that I might need to give up a bit of that warmth if I go to a solid state amp.

I'm also considering adding an REL sub because I'm missing just a bit too much bass for those Bruckner blockbusters.

Appreciate any thoughts. The budget would be 1-3000 GBP, new or used. I'd prefer an integrated amp but am open to just a power amp that would mate well with my Conrad Johnson tube preamp.

[jandl100]

I'm aware of Harbeth's official ("anything that works to spec") approach, so I'm digging for a little more insight.

Good thinking!

All well-designed amps used within spec do NOT sound the same!

I recognize that I might need to give up a bit of that warmth if I go to a solid state amp.

Well, not really. You can get warm ss amps and razor-sharp tube amps.

But your CJ pre-amp is likely to be imparting a nice warm glow!

I've heard Harbeth speakers sound very fine with PrimaLuna valve amps - they have a nicely neutral sound, with good bass control and excellent imaging - just avoid using el34 toobs as other types will give a more lively and engaging sound, imo.

I'm not familiar with your Cary power amps, so I don't really know if a PL amp would improve on things for you. But I've owned a Cary SET (572se) amps and they had excellent bass!

My suspicion is that you may be right, and you may have to give up the warm glow of your CJ pre in order to get much improvement in the bass.

[DSJR]

Tony Lonorgan would disagree with the "Prima Luna amps and Harbeths working well together" sentiment quite strongly I think Jerry...

Before an expensive amp upgrade, I'd make sure the Compact 7's are properly supported. get the stands wrong, and the bass sounds thuddy and tubby - very un-natural (I believe the current models have had extra bracing in the boxes to deal with this slight idiosyncrasy). My recommendation from personal experience is for the Something Solid stands, which support the boxes at each bottom corner and lets then flex properly. These stands are available from Signals Ipswich, Deco Audio Aylesbury and HiFi dave, who sells both brands.

Compact 7's are not ruthlessly analytical and if the amp is a transformer coupled valve jobbie with high output impedance and therefore little to no bass control, the excess bloat may be tamed by speaker position changes. For your budget, you could try to look out for a vintage Radford, although prices are high and if not serviced, it'll need one. Radford's output transformers were the best in the business back then and because the output impedance is low (according to a recent test on STA15's in HFN), the damping factor will be nigh on (some) solid state levels.

As for new amps, accusations of shilling (Mr Dunn just won't leave me alone) prevent me from mentioning the usual suspects around a grand that sound SO good with all Harbeth models, but maybe hifi dave will be along to mention them for himself.

P.S. Another great used buy which I think Jerry liked too is the later Lab amp series from AVI. Low input impedance means careful choice of source equipment is necessary (only 10K or so which may prevent some classic line sources working at their best I think), but a very transparent and reliable product otherwise and all the control necessary for ported speakers in general..

[hifi_dave]

I use all manner of amps with the Harbeth range and get great results with all, so I wouldn't say the C7's are particularly difficult.

I am inclined to ask, why do you feel the need to change ? Do you have the correct stands for them, otherwise they will have a bit of bass bloom. Are they away from walls and corners ?

[jandl100]

Tony Lonorgan would disagree with the "Prima Luna amps and Harbeths working well together" sentiment quite strongly I think Jerry...

So what?
I've heard them. They do work well together, imho.
Who is Tony Lonorgan, anyway? - and why should I believe him rather than my own ears?
EDIT: ah, right - Google is my friend. The PFM geezer. I'm sure his pov is as valid as mine - but I'd be curious as to why he came to that conclusion.

I've only heard Harbeth 7ES3's with a couple of PL amps - the sound was a touch on the analytical side, but that suits many people, and the 3D imaging was nothing short of excellent, although individual images were a bit broadened. And there was no tendency to unpleasantly exaggerate the top end, which can be a problem with some Harbeths. The bass was deep and vibrant, with suitable system cabling, surprisingly so for such a small cabinet. What's not to like?

P.S. Another great used buy which I think Jerry liked too is the later Lab amp series from AVI.

AVi Lab Series amps? Ooo, I don't think so, I'd be surprised if that was good synergy - they would exacerbate Harbeth's tendency toward the ultra-clean monitor sound side of the fence, I would imagine. Few people actually want that, ime.

[DSJR]

Hey Jerry, if you think current Harbeths are ultra-clean "monitor" types, I shudder to think what you'd feel about modern active "proper" monitors. It may give you a chuckle at my expense that I've been battling with AVI's Ashley about this very thing, since on HDD, Harbeth is "the brand that shall not be named," because when it is, world war three breaks out against lovers of vintage nostalgic passively driven charm with "boom" for bass as against "clean, accurate, active" speakers using state of the art OEM drivers with a sub or two for bass extension...

I don't know which generation of Compact 7's these are, since there's at least three over the last sixteen or seventeen years or so, but the later ones are as sweet as a nut and with far tauter bass than originally. Because the crossover region is so seamless, I really have found them amp-friendly.

Have a look on their user group site, as so many of their far eastern clients use a huge assortment of valve amps with them and with great results too..

[jandl100]

Hey Jerry, if you think current Harbeths are ultra-clean "monitor" types, I shudder to think what you'd feel about modern active "proper" monitors..

Werll - actually I said they had a 'tendency' toward the ultra clean monitor sound. Meaning I thought they sat on that side of the fence.

But different Harbeth models have different treble presentations. I agree that the 7ES3 I heard are pretty smooth, but I've heard SHL5's (I think) that are screechy as hell and pretty much intolerable on decently recorded fare, imo.

And from what I have heard, Harbeth bass is a moveable feast - very dependent on ancilliaries and supports etc. I've heard bass from 7ES3 sound over-warm and waffly and also taut and controlled, depending on how they were fed.

[hifi_dave]

Werll - actually I said they had a 'tendency' toward the ultra clean monitor sound. Meaning I thought they sat on that side of the fence.

But different Harbeth models have different treble presentations. I agree that the 7ES3 I heard are pretty smooth, but I've heard SHL5's (I think) that are screechy as hell and pretty much intolerable on decently recorded fare, imo.

And from what I have heard, Harbeth bass is a moveable feast - very dependent on ancilliaries and supports etc. I've heard bass from 7ES3 sound over-warm and waffly and also taut and controlled, depending on how they were fed.

SHL5s 'screechy as hell' is that Harbeth you're talking about ? The only way you could provoke a Harbeth speaker into sounding anything like that, would be to drive them with a very bright system, where the speaker shows up what's in front.

I use Harbeth speakers every day and right across the range. I use them with Naim, Rega, EAR, Albarry, Puresound and Croft amps plus the occasional Leak, Radford and Quad vintage amps and I've never had anyone saying they are 'screechy as hell', or anything approaching that. The usual response is how relaxing they are.

At the other end of the spectrum they need good stands - Something Solid especially and they need to be away from walls. The same applies to any speaker with pretensions to supplying low frequencies. They are amongst the most unfussy and satisfactory speakers I have ever used.

[Elephantears]

They really are very sensitive to changes with amps, but at the same time work well with all sorts. Just to qualify the 'Tony L Primaluna' issue; he used a Primaluna for some time with C7's and liked it; it was only when he tried SHL5's that he had a serious attack of audiophilia nervosa and retreated to the womb of lovely old Tannoys. As I said many times on the Harbeth thread on pfm, I don't think his room was big enought for SHL5's. I didn't find mine was (17 x 11), but others have got them to fit nicely in similar sized rooms, so take that with a pinch of salt. There are just so many variables with these speakers that you have to try anything at home.

I have used my C7ES3 primarily with Naim 202/200/teddy, which works well. I got an itch for something different and have tried quite a few different amps of late. I really liked the Sonneteer integrateds, and the Croft separates. I didn't get on with the Croft power amps as well as the pre-amps, but I still might go back to Croft if I can get the right combination. I'm currently running some Unison Research Unico Pre/DM alongside the Naim. This is a tricky either-or for me for two main reasons;

1) Naim rolls of the bass and the highs; this is one reason I was looking for a change, but actually that roll of can be very helpful in a domestic setting. Harbeths can easily boom. With the Unico's I get much greater extension, but there are times when the bass is too much and the mids are recessed. This is a room specific issue.

2) The Unico Pre doesn't seem to get on with my phono stage (TE Microgroove Plus), whilst this was a very good match with my Naims.

The thing is that Harbeths are probably more revealing than warm, so every choice you make in the reproduction chain is significant.

[Darren]

Stick with the tubes, sort the stands and get a nice REL. the difference mine has made to the work system has to be heard to be appreciated. There is much deep,rythmic, dynamic bass.