Half-a-brain loonies and internet geeks

[Dave Cawley]

I have completely lost the plot! What is this thread about??

But better than anything, from eBay just received a first pressing of The Who Quadrophenia, lovely....................

Dave

[David Price]

Hi Sastusbulbas - well I'm hardly likely to agree with Malcolm here, am I? I'll get the internet equivalent of a lynching! (Joke, BTW!)

I think it's sad that such a fault line seems to be developing between magazines and forums - I don't see why this should happen, as it doesn't seem to happen with forums devoted to other interests of mine (like classic cars, music, etc.). I think there a lot of people who like talking about hi-fi politics on forums, rather than actually talking about hi-fi, which perplexes me.

I think some people overstate the importance of magazines - if you don't like the reviewer(s), then don't buy the mag - it's not like there's only one 'state-owned hi-fi magazine giving an official view' that you are forced or coerced to buy now, is it?

I also think some people take this all too seriously - D Louth's posting about Malcolm having to 'repent' and 'be held to account' are a bit over the top. It's not a 'sin' to say what he said (it's a free country and he didn't break the law), and he doesn't have to be held to account by anyone (except his maker, or bank manager) - he's not a democratically elected politician or a public servant; we're not paying his wages (especially the outraged folk on forums!)

Let's not forget there are countless wars, disease epidemics and natural disasters happening around the world at any given time - in the great scheme of things these are outrageous and scandalous, not the writings of a hi-fi hack (or forum poster) for that matter. A sense of perspective is often useful at times like this - especially at Xmas...

Ultimately, I think people should have confidence in themselves and their own choices. When you get to this point, you no longer feel challenged or affronted by the writings/rantings of others and you can take them with a pinch of salt when needed. Life is too short - don't let other people's opinions get to you, unless you secretly fear they are right!

[Gerry]

I have completely lost the plot! What is this thread about??
Dave

The thread along with a few others appears to me be about HFW and NK in particular not liking the Denon 103.
The idea is to get DP to comment on their disdain for this cartridge and provide an explanation as to why, along with explaining NK's comments in the last HFW letters section.

To me, it appears some what unfair (and in keeping with some of the HiFi mags editors comment son BB's) that pressure is being bought to bear on an individual to answer for some else and their thoughts/comments.

At the end of the day this a free country and someone can say or think what they like. Weather you agree with it is neither here nor there.

I for one love the 103 & 103R. I also have a number of other cartridges I like too. I don't personally agree with NK or DP's view of the 103 and the context in which it is reviewed. But I really don't give a dam! I like what I like and I don't need to question anyone about it or feel the need to have others conform to my view, or try to pressurize them into thinking the same.

It is all system dependent after all. My system suits the Denon, big heavy Jap arms on DD's & Idlers (yes I have too many TTs).
Of course if DP and NK want to hear it on proper TT they're welcome to (DP ask Richard (Vantage)).

Anyway my piece said....of course you can disagree....and all IMHO

regards
Gerry

[David Price]

Gerry - well said that man! DP

[Dave Cawley]

OK, got it! Freedom of speech is very important. And Hi Fi World do more to promote vinyl than any magazine out there, bless them!!

Dave

[David Price]

Alright, well I've got a few minutes spare, so let's get to the DL103 debate.

Noel and I were simply expressing an opinion. We certainly don't agree about everything, but we both feel the DL103 isn't an exceptional cartridge - nor should we expect it be considering its modest price. However, it certainly has a 'character' that some find very pleasing, and this can also be an excellent palliative for certain types of system.

To me, the DL103 sounds involving, engaging and musical - as per all lowish compliance Moving Coils like the Decca London, for example. This sort of sound is a function of the cartridge's suspension, as much as anything else, but means you need a high mass arm to prevent mistracking/bad sound. In the same way that a heavy car with stiff springs rides better than a light one with the same suspension, so the Denon demands a massy platform. Also, fluid damping seems to help this more than most.

One big downside is the stylus profile, which so my Japanese hi-fi nut friend tells me was developed for broadcast applications - basically for NHK in the nineteen sixties. This originally meant tracking forces of 3-5g to prevent needle jump on air! A spherical stylus was thus mandatory, and that's how it has stayed. This is not the ideal profile for tracking a microgroove LP, not least because of the end-of-side treble drop out. Sonics seem to suffer right across the arc of the disc, manifesting as lack of 'inner detail' and treble finesse. There's also a record wear issue; opinion is divided but there is a considerable body of evidence to show spherical tips wear records faster than elliptical (or variant) tips.

Periodically, limited edition versions of the DL103 have been released in Japan with elliptical styli - I owned one myself in the early nineties which I brought brand new. Still, these didn't sound dramatically different, suggesting the cantilever material/suspension/motor/body/wiring also 'add' a lot of character. I have heard a DL103 with the body removed (a popular tweak amongst Japanese DL103-philes) and it's quite a lot cleaner and more open. Denon fitted a square plastic body to the '103, for reasons of durability, ease of installation to the headshell and ease of cueing - it wasn't designed for low resonance.

Having run a DL103, in several arms (Ittok, Acos Lustre, Denon DP3000) and decks (Linn, Michell, STD, Pioneer PL600) in the early nineties, I decided it wasn't for me. I liked the lively, punchy, engaging sound but couldn't live with the rather 'elementary' treble and lack of detail. I moved to an Audio Technica AT-0C9, and then an AT-33E which I loved. In Japan (where I lived), the Denon sold for about Y18,000 (£80 at the time) and the AT about the same, so there was no contest for me.

I'm not a fascist, so I'm not going to tell anyone who's getting a nice sound out of their DL103 that they're stupid or misguided, as I can accept that its distinctive presentation should really 'make' some systems (and 'break' others!), but conversely I'd ask you not to assume that there's some kind conspiracy at HFW against the DL103. There isn't! However, I think we do knock it a little 'gratuitously' sometimes, I admit - sorry if this upsets sensitive souls!

David

[Spectral Morn]

Firstly thank you for your response to the Denon DL 103 debate, much appreciated I am sure by all on AOS. Marco I think is on holiday, so will respond in his own time. I do not have anything other than a passing interest in the DL 103 Cartridge by the way. Never heard one so can't comment.

As to my last posting. I do acknowledge that Malcolm is freely entitled to his opinion ( something I state in the post) on whatever topic he wants, as am I and your good self too. However what added further fuel to my concern about his recent comments was the very poor response Sastusbulbas got to his post on Hi-Fi Critics Forum, either total disinterest or as he say "very political answers worthy of politicians ", I.E evasion and changing the subject. His Thread and postings were very gentlemanly but received very little debate (unlike here ). I spent awhile looking around and found that not only did Malcolm respond to posters on other threads ( not Sastusbulbas thread )but also moderated some one who was rude on a thread (as it is deleted I don't know what was said ). I think that what he said in his comment piece is a classic example of lowest common denominator journalism and in it he is, in the broadest brush strokes possible, making all who post on forums and not just on computer related topics a target for his insults. He was not prepared to allow some one on his forum to use insulting language, so why should we accept this either. Who is moderating him. My main gripe is the language used and his generalizations about forums and their members.

His choice to moderate rudeness but yet to dish it out where he can not be moderated strikes me as being a classic example of double standards and rank hypocrisy.

Should people be free to have and express opinions Yes, but they should explain themselves properly and not decend to gutter language to do so.

One other fact not really discussed here is his dislike of the democracy and freedom the net and forums gives its users. Are there those who can't string two words together and should really not post ? Yes. Are there those who don't understand their topics ? Yes. However for most people it is fairly easy to know who they are and the democracy of the net allows their misinformation or lack of understanding to be challenged ( in I would hope a kind and gentlemanly way. I know thats not the case all the time ,but Moderators are here to ensure fair play ) something it is hard to do with the printed media, who for many years had the monopoly on the topics they write about and not all ways were exempt from misinformation and extreme bias themselves. The net is a double edged sword but I for one welcome its democracy/freedom as long as information is qualified fully. I am sorry that Malcolm feels frustrated by that fact but the Genie is out of the bottle and it is way to late to put it back.

I do agree with David that there are many more important issues in the world to worry about or deal with, but I also feel that rudeness should be challenged when it comes up. It is to easy to descend to insults and miss the chance to be critical without the decent to gutter level language, plus I find generalization very frustrating.


Regards D S D L ----- Neil

[Primalsea]

Hi Sastusbulbas,

We did go a little off road didn't we, infact mostly we didn't even find the road in the 1st place.
To be fair your initial post was really a few issues wrapped up in one package making it quite heavy going.

However, some of what you said was illustrated in following posts. At the end of the day it's all about choice, you choose what you want to do and what you want to say. Hifi is a bit bizarre as its a very personal and subjective thing that defines the quality of equipment. A complaint about a particular hifi item becomes a personal complaint to someone who owns it (and likes it) as it's qualities were judged by them. to dismiss the item is to dismiss the users ability to make judgement.

This isn't really the case, its all in peoples heads unless someone is rather rude and outspoken. People shouldn't take it all so personally.

The truth is there are people out there who do look out for peoples interests but there are a lot of twats as well. The twats tend to be the ones that cause all the sensational moments that are far more interesting than the good guys who haven't got axes to grind. Its all smoke an mirrors, heat but no light etc.

[sastusbulbas]

I think it's sad that such a fault line seems to be developing between magazines and forums - I don't see why this should happen, as it doesn't seem to happen with forums devoted to other interests of mine (like classic cars, music, etc.). I think there a lot of people who like talking about hi-fi politics on forums, rather than actually talking about hi-fi, which perplexes me.
Opinion, Most magazines do not openly support the deception of a customer for proffit. Hi Fi Magazines clearly do.

I think some people overstate the importance of magazines - if you don't like the reviewer(s), then don't buy the mag - it's not like there's only one 'state-owned hi-fi magazine giving an official view' that you are forced or coerced to buy now, is it?
Opinion, Hi Fi Magazines made their own rules up and buried their own heads in the sand, I think people are underestimating the effect blatant product hype and advertising have in the British audio scene. It is not about being forced but people are coerced and conned, buy this product look how good it is etc etc.

I also think some people take this all too seriously - D Louth's posting about Malcolm having to 'repent' and 'be held to account' are a bit over the top. It's not a 'sin' to say what he said (it's a free country and he didn't break the law), and he doesn't have to be held to account by anyone (except his maker, or bank manager) - he's not a democratically elected politician or a public servant; we're not paying his wages (especially the outraged folk on forums!)
Opinion, He is writing personal opinion in a publication, without investigating the cause and effect of the complaint! The forums are festering because of such opinion, of course it should be taken seriously. It is not a free country, I cannot claim my Magic soup can cure cancer and have a reviewer give it four stars, then belittle someone who claims I am making it up.

Let's not forget there are countless wars, disease epidemics and natural disasters happening around the world at any given time - in the great scheme of things these are outrageous and scandalous, not the writings of a hi-fi hack (or forum poster) for that matter. A sense of perspective is often useful at times like this - especially at Xmas...
Opinion, Lets look at things at home, British society is nothing like Question time and politics show, we still have deliberate class segregation, different levels of education and quality of public services dependent on postcode, made up hype surveys regarding minimum wage, fuel poverty etc etc, our economy is a mess, and yet we have a society that excepts ever increasing fuel costs, bank charges, will happily pay more for a home and support magazines that blatantly lie and support product which costs more than it should. A sense of perspective, a £2 per meter cable should be shown for what it is by a reviewer, instead of that reviewer giving that product 4 stars for a £1200 stereo pair. We have people in this country duped into spending hard earned cash for over hyped off the shelf re-badged components, and magazines choose only to review what is necessary so as to not upset the apple cart!

Ultimately, I think people should have confidence in themselves and their own choices. When you get to this point, you no longer feel challenged or affronted by the writings/rantings of others and you can take them with a pinch of salt when needed. Life is too short - don't let other people's opinions get to you, unless you secretly fear they are right!

opinion, People can have a false confidence, reading the magazines and agreeing with reviews, just to have that confidence shattered by a forum mob, where it is replaced by mistrust and suspicion, they can argue in defence of technical debate given.

Do let other opinions get to you, THIS IS IMPORTANT, as if your confidence in a product is based on a magazine review, or technical information from a manufacturer, YOU MAY HAVE BEEN CONNED. You may have spent more money than you had to for a re-badged product which only got a favourable review to keep things sweet.

Hi David,

Sadly I feel people can be lulled into a false sense of security. Magazines HAVE done this to consumers, ALL magazines have stated opinion, hype and supported all sorts of made up rubbish regarding all matter of Hi Fi Retail products, WITHOUT robust technical evidence.

The forum divide and and Hi Fi Geeks and lunies are born from this. We have divides within forums, those that will not now believe anything without robust proof, and those who are alienated and belittled for supporting manufacturer and magazine claims.

The car magazines do not lie and make up shite, nor do they recommend and hype up a product with a stupendous review system which never seems to be less than 4 out of 5 stars.

FACT...A fancy cable costing hundreds per metre can be submitted for review, looking splendid in its nylon mesh and logo'd shrink wrap and bling plugs, and get a fabulous write up making it out to be splendid value for money. Even though the reviewer knows it is available for a couple of quid per metre from a component catalogue.

There have been plenty of technical Foo made up and relentlessly pushed into customers minds by manufacturers and magazines, I have had such admitted, but magazines decide not to upset the apple cart and support such an industry.

Until magazines start to defend technical debate with robust evidence, and look after customers by giving a true account of a product, it's origins, and its performance and value, we are only going to see more and more of a divide on forums and mistrust of magazine reviewers.

The FACT is that magazines HAVE lied to customers, have mislead them, and have made fools out of them, they have allowed manufacturers to do the same, and only ever seem to offer favourable review to the "correct" product.

Why do we not see manufacturers or reviewers defend product which is under scrutiny or debate on forums?
Why do we not see "robust" technical debate offered on forums by manufacturers of product, or by reviewers of product?

Hi Fi and the British audio scene has went to the dogs, full of con men and opinionated bigots, no one cares for the customer or his requirements and everyone in that industry seems happy to support each other with over hyped over priced products which extract the unsuspecting customer from his hard earned cash.

Why don't we ever see, product A is shite, it is a Pioneer budget DVD player in a Goldmund badged case, save thousands and buy the Pioneer model.

Or, Magic speaker cable Co have a cheek, what we have here is identical to RA component catalogue number 3445. You can get this without the bling Nylon for £2 per metre, saving you £118 per metre.

Or, This speaker is nothing more than a car speaker stuck in a DIY cabinet with a cheap Pro audio DEQ unit, avoid at all cost.

All we see is 4 stars, 5 stars, superb, very good, blah blah blah, with no robust technical debate or such. No one but the forums seem intent on protecting the potential customer from buying useless overpriced twaddle or falling for magazine technical FOO.

Magazines now have NO credibility, THEY are now full of half brained lunatics and that is what is doing the damage many ignore or turn a blind eye to.

[kt66]

I have completely lost the plot! What is this thread about??

But better than anything, from eBay just received a first pressing of The Who Quadrophenia, lovely....................

Dave

I think Classic Records pressing is slightly better. The print of the booklet isn't as good though.