Half-a-brain loonies and internet geeks

[David Price]

Well come on chaps - Noel's entitled to his view. Cut the guy some slack, Jack! He is a qualified audio engineer who has reviewed and/or measured just about every cartridge in existence, as well as written about them at a high level for 35 years. Can you match that? Doesn't experience count for anything all of sudden in this brave new world of forums? He's also used countless different arms to do just about every variant of the DL103 over the years, including SME 12 inchers, 3009S2, SME III, etc.

You guys are making the mistake of assuming that just because we don't share your view, we haven't heard the DL103 in the right arm. This is a problematic leap of logic. First, we have. I myself bought one with my own money (!) 9 years ago and ran it in my LP12/Ittok for nearly six months. Also put it in a SME III and Acos Lustre too, damped and undamped. Didn't like its treble, simple as that.

The interesting thing here is that you're doing the old 'ad hominem' defence of the DL103; if you don't like the message, attack the messenger(s). That doesn't defend the DL103, it just tells us you can't make a serious case for it. Actually, the best case for it you CAN make is to tell the world why you like it - put into words why it does it for you. Then we might find that we're all individuals, with individual subjective likes and dislikes (i.e. tastes) - and that's where the differences lie. Not because Noel is going off on one, Malcolm Steward has alleged vested interests or so and so is a floppy haired public school type. This is all 'noise' - the ceaseless chatter generating heat but no light.

Can't you accept that just because someone might disagree with your strongly held views, it doesn't make them stupid/ignorant/corrupt/in hock with the manufacturers, etc.? I don't like Gordon Brown, but I accept that there are some very intelligent people around who do, it's just that I happen to disagree with them. I do not automatically then ascribe corrupt/nefarious/prejudiced motives to their behaviour. To have a difference of opinion is to be democratic - if you insult those who hold counter views to your own then you're a fascist or an autocrat. That's why when I insult the DL103, I do it - as someone astutely pointed out - tongue (slightly) in cheek!

I guarantee that if Noel (or David) heard the 103 in that context (both) their conclusions would be somewhat different!

But will they do that in order to give the 103 a fair hearing before judging, instead of arriving at ill-informed conclusions such it being "an internet special that's been talked up in the (deluded) collective conciousness" based on relative ignorance from using the wrong partnering equipment?

The funniest thing of all though, is that with Mr Keywood the words "Denon DL-103" appear to be permanently impregnated in his mind, and like a red flag to a bull goes charging off in a 'fit of rage' even when the DL-103 wasn't even being referred to.

How so?
Marco.

[Marco]

Lol. I'll come back to you on this, David.

Right now I'm enjoying the sonic virtues of a brand new £450 Japan-only 'Special Anniversary' edition of the 103 (a 103SA, shown in link below) in a recently purchased high-mass 'classic' Fidelity Research S/5 headshell (originally from the legendary FR66 arm) fitted to the Jelco - now *this* is a seriously good 103 - in fact the best I've ever heard

Denon DL-103SA: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Denon-DL-103SA...1%7C240%3A1318

More later!

In the meantime you will admit, though, that Noel got his wires crossed with poor old Nigel in the letters section?

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

My own gripe with Malcolm was his broad attack on forums and those who post on them. I accept that there are some who as you say just make a lot of noise and don't have any light to shine on the subjects they respond to. However reading between the lines it would seem that Malcolm is tarring all who post on forums as being "half-a-bran lunatics". The context of his opinion piece is computer audio and his frustration with those who are Audiophiles and are so against it. Now I don't have any issue with those who listen to music this way. I choose not to (reasons why outlined in my post, a few pages back), however I do take issue when a writer broadly attacks those who post on forums and does so in a way that is so rude. If Malcolm is so frustrated why not tackle those who he disagrees with at the time rather than in such a broad way in print. It is after all part of his job description to inform his readers about audio and his passions therein. While it is a fact that not all who read about your passions and interests will share them, at the very least it would make an interesting and informative read for the rest of us who may learn a little or a lot from his experiences. He however feels to do so would be to cast pearls among swine (my paraphrase). I don't pay good money for magazines to be spoken to in such a cheap way by any journalist and further more I don't feel it is a particularly rewarding way for ones points to be put across in/on any medium. To often this type of nonsense goes on unchallenged on some Forums. I guess I expected better of him in the accountable real print medium. I for one do hold him to account for this type of gutter language. He has forgotten to offer qualifications and paints the lot of us with very insulting words.

It is also a pity that he did not site examples (I do realize that copy space is limited in these types of articles) of the sites and comments that had so angered him to state that forums are populated by half-a-brain lunatics. Are there some such on forums sadly yes, but not as many as he seems to think there are IMHE. I have been involving my self on forums since June of this year and the one thing that bothers me a lot is the lack of qualification in the posts/threads. With a lack of information to support claims and experiences. This makes it hard to gain any insight as to why things sound the way they do, or why some one likes or dislikes something. I must say that this lowest common denominator style is also prevalent in printed audio magazines too, and has been for at least the last 8 years or so( part of the great dumbing down happening in society and the media in general). It would be hard to learn as much as I did from todays mags as I did from audio magazines say in the mid to late 80's and the early 90's. After a break in reading magazines from 1996 to 1999 ( I was out of the Audio trade and heart broken at this state of affairs) I was shocked at just how little meat was present in any of the titles I used to find so valuable, Hi-Fi News, Stereophile, The Absolute Sound and the like. Content (the written word ) had been replaced by lots of pictures and very little about how the product under review sounded. Plenty of what it does, features and technology but very little on sound. This has got worse over the last few years. If I want background info, I can go online or read an information sheet to find this out. I read magazines to find out how things sound and via a number of opinions get a consensus on how that particular product sounds. Its strengths and any weakness and any ways that can stretch already good sound (tweaks etc) and raise the performance further. Most great products can be improved by the understanding of what mains leads or isolation products can push an extra few percent out of it, and if its speakers what type of room and positioning will give it the best chance to work well, or brilliantly. Modern mags reliance on lots of pictures (just how many views of a product do you need) , squeeze this sort of depth out and leave a type of audio porn mag, lots of pictures and precious little to read and learn from. Hi-Fi News had become like this a few years ago and thankfully has improved a bit recently, still to many pictures though and still a poor imitation on what it used to be back in the late 80's.

I find your magazine to be in some ways more like the older style, providing a good read but still I would say, that with a few less pictures ( or smaller ones ), and more of the written word, you could give greater insight into the products you carefully pick for review. Thank you for being involved on this forum. I for one appreciate that participation a lot.

Regards D S D L ----- Neil

[David Price]

thanks Neil - an interesting piece of context to this particular strand. I haven't read it all to be honest, so I waded in and responded to a few of the posts in general without having read Malcolm's original post.

However - what I am calling for - and indeed this is precisely what you give in your post - is a clear, logical and well reasoned argument. I'm afraid what puts me off forums is all the personal attacks and the gleeful joy that some posters seem to show in having a go at the mags/journalists, sometimes in a very personal way, and/or putting everyone in the same pigeonhole.

Hi-fi hacks are just people like folk on this forum, there are some perfectly decent and honest ones, some loonies, some eccentrics, some dullards, some fairly benign, others not, etc. It's just a bit depressing for me to see everyone being tarred by the same brush. I'd like to see more substantive argument (which is just what you give in your post) - reasoned discussion of facts rather than personal attacks (usually made from a position of ignorance).

I'm also fascinated by this magazine vs. forum thing. Actually, it seems Malcolm joining in too. But there seem to be battle lines being drawn between magazine journos and forum posters here, and I'm not sure why. I post on the Jaguar Enthusiasts Club forum often (normally asking how to fix something else that's gone wrong with my old XJ6), but I still read Classic Car magazines and don't assume that the reason the XJ6 isn't featured very often is down to a conspiracy/ulterior motives on the part of the journalists! Nor do I wish the end of Jaguar World magazine, because they said the early XJ40s are rubbish (and I have one, and know this not to be the case)! I can't quite see why hi-fi forums have got so political (with so many personal attacks and conspiracy theories) when other 'special interest' forums haven't. Am I missing something?

[Marco]

Hi David,

I agree, and think that I've more than provided "clear, logical and well reasoned arguments" for the DL-103 in my previous posts, too, have I not?

More on-topic, if a fellow journalist in another magazine (Malcolm Steward) is going to refer to everyone on forums as being "Half a brain loonies", without exception, he must expect some sort of backlash! It's precisely this type of silly behaviour that's created the "magazine vs. forum thing" you refer to.

I haven't read Mr Steward's article in Hi-fi Choice, but it appears to be little more than a rant. At least Roy Gregory was fairly constructive in his criticism of forums and made some pertinent and fair points.

Marco.

[Togil]

Lol. I'll come back to you on this, David.

Right now I'm enjoying the sonic virtues of a brand new £450 Japan-only 'Special Anniversary' edition of the 103 (a 103SA, shown in link below) More later!

In the meantime you will admit, though, that Noel got his wires crossed with poor old Nigel in the letters section?

Marco.

It isn't Japan only, it's also for sale in Germany

Price Euro 499

[Marco]

How very true, Hans. I even linked to a German Ebay seller - senility is kicking in rather early!

My mistake, it used to be Japan-only.

Obviously David is choosing to ignore my questions, deflecting attention away from the howler Noel made, and also my pertinent observations about Noel's rather scathing and unjustified attack on the 103, hey ho...

As Neil (D Louth) says:

I do take issue when a writer broadly attacks those who post on forums and does so in a way that is so rude...

Quite! And the same applies to Noel Keywood's recent remarks to a reader's letter in HFW.

Never mind, Neil. David's skirting around the issue gives me all the more time later to answer your previous post!

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Marco, I suspect David has said as much as he needs to say on the 103 and Mr Keywood and can perhaps be left alone now on this. I agree that if battle lines are now drawn, we know where the fault lies for that... it would be that of a certain Critic rather than being of a World view.

I think we can be excused for our "inquisitive tone" and you can rest assured that it will remain "relaxed" -- if the 'magazines' are out to get anyone, I don't think it is anyone here.

[Marco]

There are no "battle lines" as far as I'm concerned, Steve. I simply seek clarity on some of David's and Noel's comments regarding the 103, which I'm sure David will oblige me with in due course

Marco.

P.S I'm at my lunch

[DSJR]

The "us vs them" HiFi feeling has been with us in the UK ever since the late seventies, when a certain pair of UK manufacturers tried (and succeded) in splitting the industry up. Those dealers without these agencies being lower class to those that had and who were doing so well, at least until the mid eighties, when one of them launched their own amps... In fact, the "in" crowd were probably the most opinionated and ignorant of them all as they had no exposure to other products (the reps stayed well away from these people). I only survived it because my formative years were spent working with some fabulous international brands and I always had a question as to why my (supposedly) fabulous Isobariks sounded so coloured and chrome plated in the mid and treble compared to the BC1's I'd sold previously.....

I've been reading audio mags since the mid sixties and very much miss the more technical nature of the reviews. Having said that, I reckon most reviewers back then would have open mindedly tried their level best to find out if something they heard but couldn't then measure could actually be measured scientifically.