Half-a-brain loonies and internet geeks

[Dave Cawley]

ours being 50hz theirs 60hz, this means that a mains transformer designed here on 50hz will become more efficient when run on 60hz hence you will have a higher secondary voltage, for the same given primary voltage than over here !!!

It depends mostly on the turns ratio, not frequency.

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Tim,

Well, to the point that I understand it, Marco, it sounds like the kind of audiophile subtlety, and there are a few of them, that I never hear.

Lol! Well, you may brand it as "audiophile subtlety", Tim, but when I've tried mains filters in the past which have been 'total dogs' and about of much use as a hard-on in a nunnery (and believe me there are a few for sale in the UK just like that) which quite simply kill dynamics (and therefore the music with it), the effect is rather more significant than "audiophile subtlety" - it is far more fundamental than that. With respect, like you say, you've not heard it, so you wouldn't know...

I don't assume that's because they don't exist. It could sometimes be because I don't listen for them. Doesn't keep me from questioning them and occasionally fencing with those who obsess over them, though.

I guess that it depends what you define as "obsess". When I discover something, outside of main equipment upgrades, the effect of which I feel is significant (i.e. a bit more than "audiophile subtlety" ), I experiment with it and analyse things in detail for usually around a period of a week, just to make sure that what I'm hearing is genuine and not imagined.

It's all too easy for one's ears to be fooled into thinking that there is a genuine improvement when experimenting with hi-fi when in reality it's simply different rather than better but perhaps better, seemingly, at first. The difference with me, however, compared to your average, 'measurements obsessive', is that I don't need any 'proof' to come to an informed conclusion other than that provided by the God-given auditory vessels on the side of my head. I am extremely thorough though, trust me, but after a period of stringent assessing of any possible beneficial sonic effect with new hi-fi equipment or ancillaries, I have complete faith in my hearing acuity and what my ears have judged as correct or otherwise. I recommend nothing on this forum or express any opinions on any subject which hasn't been thoroughly evaluated and carefully considered before 'putting pen to paper', as it were.

However, once the period of assessment is over and I've decided that whatever it was (new cables, valves, etc) has made a genuine improvement and decided to incorporate it/them into my system then I "obsess" no more - I simply sit back and enjoy the music. I don't piss around for the sake of it - that's not where my head is at. It could take many months again, or even longer, before I discover something else which I feel is worth investigating, and in the interim I'll simply be enjoying music in a state of complete satisfaction. You must remember that because I have the luxury of working from home I listen to a huge variety of music on average for 6-7 hours per day, so I'm far from being a 'hi-fi obsessive'.

You and Steve have me pegged as an absolutist, and I'm far from it. A pragmatist is more like it.

Not at all. Steve can speak for himself but I've "pegged" you as no such thing! You just have a different, but equally as valid, way of looking at hi-fi. I enjoy our exchanges because your rather more objective and scientifically enquiring mind forces me to question my decisions and think more about if what I'm doing is right, which can only be a good thing. I am not someone who makes up his mind quickly about things or is easily influenced by 'flavours of the month' or what is considered de rigour by the cognoscenti - I am extremely single-minded and hard to please with hi-fi, therefore comments from others who think differently, such as you, help validate my conclusions.

Maybe the power conditioners I'm accustomed to are active? They appear to have the opposite effect described -- keeping voltage steadier than it is coming out of the wall, and reporting on it by the second. Of course I don't suppose they couldn't be active regulators containing passive filters? I'm no electrician.

The results of power filters on hi-fi systems here in the UK could be a different ball game to what is achieved with them in the States, simply because of the different voltages involved and their knock-on effect on filters and the hi-fi systems they're being used with. I therefore cannot comment on the results you're obtaining, so in that respect you should perhaps keep an open mind as to the results I've obtained here with power filters instead of 'pegging' it rather glibly with superficial terminology such as "audiophile subtlety".

Do continue though to keep giving me your little 'reality checks'. I enjoy 'fencing'!

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

ours being 50hz theirs 60hz, this means that a mains transformer designed here on 50hz will become more efficient when run on 60hz hence you will have a higher secondary voltage, for the same given primary voltage than over here !!!

It depends mostly on the turns ratio, not frequency.

Dave

hi dave,
turns ratio will be dependant on the size of the core used, ie, some people use more windings than steel, and vice versa,,,so without going into too much indepth detail i think my opinion still has merit...
anthony...

[John]

My experience of clean power has been interesting I use a reginarator to clean up my mains and in my system finds it makes a difference however I tried it at a friends house and it made no difference I could hear. He lives in a Modern House I live in pre 2nd world war house. I am guessing the age of the mains my make a difference here but no idea why. I had friends around and we taken the P500 out of the power chain and there is a noticable loss of resolution. So I believe this technology has to be tried out in the home before purchase as it might make no difference or it might make a noticable difference
I remember reading much the same thoughts from Howard when demostrating the power plant

[anthonyTD]

My experience of clean power has been interesting I use a reginarator to clean up my mains and in my system finds it makes a difference however I tried it at a friends house and it made no difference I could hear. He lives in a Modern House I live in pre 2nd world war house. I am guessing the age of the mains my make a difference hear but no idea why. I had friends around and we taken the P500 out of the power chain and there is a noticable loss of resolution. So I believe this technology has to be tried out in the home before purchase as it miht make o difference or it might make a noticable difference
I remember reading much the same thoughts from Howard when demostrating the power plant

hi john,
good point, another thing we are not considering is the distance each of us are away from the nearest distribution transformers, this may well be a significant factor why some report a diffrence, and some dont.
anthony,TD...

[Marco]

Indeed. The fact is the 'dirtier' and 'noisier' the electrical supply, the better a filter will work!

It is also a fact, for example, that older properties have considerably inferior electrical installations overall than their more modern counterparts. For starters, as far as hi-fi systems are concerned, performance will be adversely affected by the use of underrated 40, 60 or 80A main distribution box fuses instead of the 100A ones used now as standard in most modern homes, thus in a hi-fi context, reducing impedance at the head of the incoming mains supply, and in turn improving system performance. Futhermore, in some cases older properties will have completely outdated and incorrectly specified wiring looms, and again this will impact on the performance of any hi-fi system connected in circuit.

My house (an early 19th century property) had fuse wire in use inside an antiquated bakelite consumer unit until I updated it with RCDs, fitted a new CU, and had the house completely rewired. Even before I installed my current rather elaborate and bespoke mains set-up I could clearly hear a significant improvement in the performance of my system!

Probably 90% of Hi-fi enthusiasts, even those who consider themselves as 'dedicated to the cause' vastly underestimate the effect of the electrical supply on their hi-fi equipment - they're too obsessed with boxes and don't concentrate enough on the items necessary to optimise their performance. You're lucky if people spend a few extra pounds on some decent mains leads and a power strip, never mind doing things properly from the source first, and installing a separate dedicated circuit (and/or mains regenerator/effective filter(s)) to supply clean power to their hi-fi system. Doing so makes a huge difference: as they say, you don't run a Formula 1 racing car on 2-star fuel!

Electricity is the 'fuel' used to power your hi-fi system so its relative quality (in terms of it being as 'pure' and as free as possible from noise and interference such as RFI and EMI) is just as important to a hi-fi system's performance, in order to hear music at its best, as the fuel in a racing car is to the performance of its engine. I can assure you, when you hear how significant the sonic benefits are of optimising the mains set-up for your hi-fi system you'll never pay such scant regard to this aspect of system building again...

I could go on about this more, but I've written about it many times in the past. I live forever in the hope that one day the penny will drop!!

Marco.

[tfarney]

I guess that it depends what you define as "obsess". When I discover something, outside of main equipment upgrades, the effect of which I feel is significant (i.e. a bit more than "audiophile subtlety" ), I experiment with it and analyse things in detail for usually around a period of a week, just to make sure that what I'm hearing is genuine and not imagined.

Well, I suppose "subtle" is a relative term! So, of course, is "obsess," and while I mean no offense, the process you describe above would meet the criteria from my relative point of view. I suspect there are many things you hear that I don't hear, Marco, and mostly because I don't listen for them. If something is blatant enough to get in the way of the music without requiring much analysis, or without requiring a shift of concentration from the music to the problem, I'll look for the cause. Otherwise, I'll just keep listening to the music. Perhaps that makes me not much of an audiophile. Still, what I define as good sound is much closer, I think, to this crowd that the iPod/earbud people, so I continue to hang around your ilk .

Tim

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Guys

I was unable to offer an opinion on the original topic of this thread as I was yet to get my Jan copy of Hi-fi Choice. I now have and have read the article written by Mr Malcolm Stewart. Here goes.

" Unfortunately, we suffer democracy on the internet, which means that any lunatic with half-a-brain can post his opinions"(Jan 2008 Hi-fi Choice Malcolm Stewart cr).

Mr Stewart's article is in the main about computer audio (fair enough) but then takes a swipe at us(those who post on Forums). He raises many interesting points in his piece and asks the question why many audiophiles are not into computer audio. Now I for one feel in the minority on this forum and others in so much as I have not taken up with music from a PC/Mac source. This has little to do with sound quality as it is possible to gain good sound using external dacs from computers and servers etc. My reasons for not embracing this technology probably stem from my age(mid 40's ) and the fact that I have a thousand plus lp's and probably as many if not more cd's and I value handling solid media. I don't see the point in putting this material on a HD or the like. It is just as easy to play the original and the quality will be better IMO. I do have a dislike for the way music is more of a commodity now and is not cherished in the same way as it used to be and in many ways this is due to the boom in the internet and downloading and all the ways that many chose to store and listen to their music. I was never into portable audio and believe it or not I don't own a mobile phone (if I did it would be just for making calls and nothing else). I miss the way things used to be and watch sadly as traditional ways of buying music are dying around me. I miss being able to walk into a shop and talk about music and get recommendations from some one in front of me. Don't get me wrong places like this and the internet are useful too and I do use them more but I feel I am in away being forced to because that is the way things are going. As Malcolm puts it "The way Forward". Call me a Dinosaur if you want but I prefer to live in the past way of doing things until I have no choice. In regard to how I listen to music, I feel the past suits me better and offers higher sound quality IMHO. Besides why would I want to dump my collection of audio ,my set up systems ( that work for me and I enjoy ) to replace it with new kit. As an aside I am not against technology,when I see a value in it, and I have early adopted many things including, Sky +, Hard Drive video recorders and the like.

Mr Stewart expresses his frustration with people like me( I think) but then goes on to attack in the most rude way those of us who read and contribute to forums. Now like any one he has a right to his opinion, but something that does annoy me is he makes sweeping statement, generalizes and does not qualify his facts(none are presented). Are there people on forums who should read and not post, I have to say yes. There are some who don't know enough and should wait until something comes up they do know about, or who should ask questions and try to learn. There are of course those who just want to, and get their kicks out of creating mischief, but I wont mention them again.

He, Mr Stewart goes onto say he feels like posting responses but cant be bothered as(and I paraphrase) because he feels he would be casting pearls before swine. This is a pity as his and his friends experiences would be enriching to all of us . Does he enjoy music via a computer, Yes he does and I have no issue with that but once again we(those who use/post on forums) are all being tarred with the one brush. This is not true for the most part on AOS and Zg (the forums I have experience on). The level of debate here(AOS) is fairly high(with the exception of thread drift) and the quality for those into the technology of the hobby or the subjective side of things is very high. I have been stretched a lot and I for one both enjoy and benefit from that. Not to much in the way of half-baked loonies here, so far IMO. I should point out I have not explored all of the forum's ( AOS ) content yet.

So please Malcolm involve your self on forums if you have issues, but don't resort to pure rudeness to express yourself. I for one have been involved in the audio trade since 1989 and while I would not class my self as a technician but more of a subjectivist, I think I and others on Forums have much of value to share and for free. He speaks about the democracy of the internet, perhaps he is referring to it being free and views that as a threat, to the medium he has made his career in i.e the printed paid for word. Just to clarify my position on this I love books and can't see myself ditching them either for Sony E-book or whatever it or its future products will be called. Quality of content however is king.

He uses words like "Truth" and frankly his experience(and I do respect him) is no more or less valuable or truthful than any one else's,if that information is qualified. A lot of the info on forums and the internet in general needs to be checked out but to dismiss it all as the ravings of lunatics is both short sighted and as I have said earlier very rude. What truth do you hold to? Your many years of experience is valuable as our mine and others who post here and on other forums. Is the truth in the form of measurements which can be open to a certain amount of interpretation, and subjective approaches have there own issues too, but all of this can come to form a body of consensus and is of value to those interested in this hobby. Something I like to insist on is that things are always qualified, at least then knowing all the facts we can check it out for ourselves. Sadly this is less the case in the printed press these days say compared to 14 years ago. Just compare an issue of Hi-fi News to one from that time or Stereophile or the Absolute sound etc. On line mags can afford space to fully explore a product, all its strengths and weakness and in depth and so can the space forums allow. This info must however always be checked out, so any crap, mis-information or hidden agendas can be filtered out. The printed press is not immune to these issues either.

Regards D S D L ---- Neil

[Colin]

As with Mr Louth's post. I only got around to reading Mr Stewarts piece over the weekend. I fail to understand why he has the nerve to assume that it is only internet fora that attract half brain lunatics. (guilty as charged) The magazines have over recent years shown a similar gathering.

I also feel he has quite possibly misread a few tongue in cheek comments.

I also fail to understand why he would wish to attack people who have little, if any interest in computer audio. It is not an age thing however, I am in my mid 50's, and have used computers to store, and play music for some 8+ years. but in my office, not in my main listening space. My elder son who is mid 20's, uses computers as part of his working, and leisure life, will not contemplate using one for audio, far preferring a CD player a record deck as the source.

Could it possibly be that the rag's are concerned at the increasing use of the internet, both for fora, and online publications, that are to my mind making overall a better job of informing what remains of the Hi-Fi buying public of what is happening in the market place. They are also far better at linking the hardware and the software into a cohesive piece than the magazines are.

[Primalsea]

To be fair forums tend to fire flak at the mags. However the posts are normally aimed at one or two mags but quick, informal typing makes it seem like it's aimed at all mags which is not the case.

As I said earlier a lot of the agro is just from statements that polarise people into camps for lack of a better word.

There is a univesal law of internet comunication which is if you send an email with 4 questions you never get all for answered. Usually you're lucky if you get one answered badly.

This is par for the course and resonable people know when something has just been phrased badly and usually apologise if the altercation was a result of them not reading posts properly.

Anyone who can't see the worth of forums despite their downsides need to re-evaluate, I think.