Half-a-brain loonies and internet geeks

[Marco]

Tim,

The "noise" I was referring to is the physical noise of fans and spinning hard drives, not the electronic noise in the internal computer environment. The latter problem is, while overstated these days, very easily addressed with the very common solution of getting the digital to analog processing outside of that environment - the external dac.

Yes, but that won't help if the whole lot is connected to the same mains supply. The switch-mode PSUs in use throughout your average computer audio system will 'infect' every other component connected to the same supply with generated noise, and incidentally, the same goes for your average DAC or CD player

Digital equipment of any description is notorious for chucking noise into the mains.

The only solution is to use a seperate mains line for the SMPS gear and try and isolate it from the rest of the equipment, but even that won't fully cure the problem.

Furthermore, I'm not sure I would agree that the problem of noise created by SMPSUs is "overstated". Read what the likes of Anthony here has written (someone with years of experience designing both valve and transistor equipment and supplying it commercially to enthusiasts and also to professional studios) for closer to the real truth.

Marco.

[tfarney]

Dave,

It tells us that they are typical inflexible thinking, belligerent, closed-minded objectivists, always spoiling for a fight (and boy did I give them one in the past ) when their dyed-in-the-wool mindset is challenged. I've encountered and 'crossed swords' with many of their breed in the past. Ignore them. Their hi-fi 'views' are based on nothing much more than hot air and years of ingrained prejudice. Fortunately AOS doesn't seem to attract their type, and long may it continue

I think the subjectivist 'use your ears always' message and open-mindedness we promote acts like garlic does to a vampire

Marco.

Agreed. And at the opposite extreme are audiophile tweakers who insist on the superiority of what they hear in spite of a complete lack of evidence beyond their own subjective opinions. It is anything but open mindedness. Open mindedness, Marco, would be "I like the sound of my system, I hope you enjoy yours." Open-mindedness would negate the need to discuss all of this, much less challenge all comers to hear what you hear. True open-mindedness would kill off all of the audiophile arguments and, therefore, the audiophile dialog once and for all, as it would leave us with nothing to discuss. I guess we'd just have to go listen to music.

Peace out.

Tim

[Colin]

*

[Marco]

It's bloody Mac!!! not MAC.

MAC stands for MEDIA ACCESS CONTROLLER and has nothing to do with makes of computer.

FYI pal the company is Apple... not MAC

Apple makes the Macintosh computer ...ie they make Macs.

I'm sick and tired of this ruddy misuse.

Nobody I know who uses a Mac is a Nazi or a fashionista. We just prefer to use a proper computer with a decent operating system not the upside down and backwards third rate malware infested knock-off that is Windows!

Rant over.

Steve

As Michael Winner would say: "Calm down dear, it's only a (bloody) computer!"



Marco.

[Marco]

Tim,

And at the opposite extreme are audiophile tweakers who insist on the superiority of what they hear in spite of a complete lack of evidence beyond their own subjective opinions.

But if that's all the evidence they need why shouldn't they proclaim what they, through practical experience of experimenting with their equipment, have discovered? Their experiences are not automatically 'incorrect' or 'invalid' simply because of a lack of supporting evidence.

No-one, certainly not me, is claiming any "superiority" and saying that I am unquestionably 'right' about hi-fi. All I offer is (hopefully) an informed opinion; that's all any of us can do and to comment from whatever our experience has told us so far.

Such experiences, however, are just as valid as those of any scientist or 'objectivist type' qualifying what they've discovered with measurements (as discussed already, who knows if the measurements obtained tell the whole story or not?) and quite simply because, as far as hi-fi equipment is concerned, and how it treats music signals, science currently doesn't have all the answers. Therefore we use our ears and we report what they tell us in an open-minded way. This is what this forum is about.

We (as admin) simply facilitate the process by providing the requisite friendly environment in order for informed discussion to take place.

I do love a robust debate as long as respect is given to the opinions of all participants, and shown to the participants themselves. We will always strive to achieve that here

If anyone thinks this hasn't happened on this thread please let me know.

Marco.

[sastusbulbas]

No fanboy elitist Mac shite intended. I thought i made it clear that it is a pretty simple matter to get bit-perfect data out of Windows as well. Core Audio makes it simpler in OSX, and its early implementation won Mac the lion's share of the pro business, but I didn't mean to overstate it. The right software, and throwing a few virtual switches in Windows will do the trick and even the score, even in the humblest Windows machines.

The "noise" I was referring to is the physical noise of fans and spinning hard drives, not the electronic noise in the internal computer environment. The latter problem is, while overstated these days, very easily addressed with the very common solution of getting the digital to analog processing outside of that environment - the external dac.

Error correction in DACs does not correct bit errors, which do not exist unless something is terribly wrong, but timing errors - jitter - most of which is generated by the very DACs that are attempting to correct it. Actual bit errors would not result in the subtle distortions attributed to jitter by those attempting to sell more and more expensive DACs. They would result in unmistakable errors that would not even warrant discussion in audiophile circles. It would result in the audio equivalent of me typing "voodoo" and you receiving "ovoodo," thus my poorly-chosen example. Sorry it pissed you off.

And yes, a hard drive is a spinning disc, but it doesn't spin to "play" the music. It simply sends data, in batches, to RAM, verifies a bit perfect match of the data in RAM back to the data on the hard drive, and then the data is sent from RAM to the DAC. The spinning disc is effectively isolated from the problem.

Last but not least, I don't claim that computer audio is "better." Given properly implemented error correction and isolation of the DAC from either disc, there should be absolutely no difference, with the same DAC, between a computer as source and an optical drive as source. The zeros and ones will be identical and the quality of the audio signal will be determined in their conversion and in the analog equipment that follows.

Computer vs optical disk is a simple choice. Do you like the convenience of having all of your music in a database, or do you prefer going through the disks, optical or vinyl, and laying your hands on the media? The voodoo is in believing either is superior to the other. And if there is anything I actually said, as opposed to something you perceived, which justifies all the anger and obscenity in your post, I offer my apology. If not, I'll accept yours.

Tim

Hi Tim, good points and well put, thanks, and of course I do apologise for the attitude in which I posted.

[greenhomeelectronics]

Thanks Marco for your kind Words.
AnthonyTD, it's the switch modes without power factor correction that are the nightmare, they can do all sorts of nasties to the neutral. I seem to recall some legislation being sought many years ago when I was in telecoms, it was a particular problem with larger units. I clearly remember BT demanding all PSUs be PFC, don't know if it ever became law though.

I bought a Mac but it weighed a ton, let the rain in and made me look foolish
Dave.

[Primalsea]

How the hell did this get on to a war on PC's and Mac's??

I have used PC's for 20 years (I had a 286 when I was 13) and Mac's for 10 years. There is no way I would by a Mac for personal use as I find them to be style over substance. However I'm very fimilar with PC's and I know how to set them up properly. PC's never run as they should out of the box and most people don't even realise this or know how to sort it. Mac's tend to just work well from the off and so are actually the better choice for most people. This is in complete opposition to my boss who is a Mac fanatic. I love winding him up, everytime we have a problem with one of the Macs in the office I shrug and say "My PC has never done that".

I have managed to get my laptop (a pc) set up well as a music server. All it took was an external sound card and a DAC64 to make it go well though. I agree the SMPS's used on computers are hopeless. Rub a sensitive part of you skin over the case or a ground and you will feel a shock (do this at your own risk I don't want to see a photo of a burnt bellend on the forum). Optical connections will do the job of getting rid of SMPS noise though.

[Marco]

Rub a sensitive part of you skin over the case or a ground and you will feel a shock (do this at your own risk I don't want to see a photo of a burnt bellend on the forum).

Indeed. I find the smell of raw chipolatas slowly cooking somewhat repugnant

Optical connections will do the job of getting rid of SMPS noise though.

Interesting, Paul. How so?

Marco.

[sastusbulbas]

It's bloody Mac!!! not MAC.

MAC stands for MEDIA ACCESS CONTROLLER and has nothing to do with makes of computer.

FYI pal the company is Apple... not MAC

Apple makes the Macintosh computer ...ie they make Macs.

I'm sick and tired of this ruddy misuse.

Nobody I know who uses a Mac is a Nazi or a fashionista. We just prefer to use a proper computer with a decent operating system not the upside down and backwards third rate malware infested knock-off that is Windows!

Rant over.

Steve

Sorry but isn't Apple software initially a knock off of Linux? And have they not became more like PC with their change in processor? Personally as a user of Apple OS, Windows OS and Linux Distro's I see no one as superior, just what people prefer.

Anyway I will call it MAC if I like, it seems to highlight the way people SHOUT it's "virtues"
Anyway as a user of Apple software since concept I am aware to some extent of it's differences and continual development over the years, which never really matured or became popular until the Tiger OS was developed and Microsoft shafted their users even more.

Apple always were a little above the average punter cause they looked cool were given away as props in movies were offered at good discount to businesses and students, were more expensive than PC's and the people who kept messing up PC's due to a lack of knowledge felt secure.

They used to shaft users with standard PC hard drives at twice the price of any normal PC shop stock, were limited in the amount of HD space you could have, had poor GPU options, and it was always possible to build a more powerful PC for half the price which worked just as well.

Apple was the original half baked knock off, which only gained popularity due to it being profiled as a lifestyle product for a certain clientèle, and Windows losing a grip of reality and becoming too popular to keep control within its own interests.