Mr Tiefenbrun has seen the light - again - apparently

[Neil McCauley]

As for Linn never outsourcing, well maybe Ivor's forgotten about his early years! .

How convenient!

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[Neil McCauley]

Still, his 'substantive point' is that Linn is a manufacturing company, a Scottish one and a British one, and he is right, and I think that is a great (and rare) thing nowadays. .......... but because the UK **must** have some manufacturing industry. We can't build our future on banking and burger bars - as recent events show.

David, your response in this instance is I believe disingenuous and I believe you know it!

'Substantive point' – in the context of such blatant misinformation? George Orwell would have been so proud!

This to me typifies the unilateral view taken throughout the UK audio magazine arena that some companies can do no wrong - ergo those companies typify infallibility. This of course conveniently ignoring the facts, as appears to have been overlooked, that the company through failing to produce products that people wanted to buy in sufficient quantity, led to scores of redundancies.

Meanwhile, it seems according to the great leader that the UK Government is to blame! I'm surprised that Aston Martin weren't similarly cited.

Curious then that Rega, as one illustrative example, don’t cite the Government as a scapegoat. As far as I'm aware, Rega continue to produce – in volume – products that people want to buy at prices that buyers perceive as good value. Surely David, the contrast with Linn’s public face couldn’t be starker?

I agree that this country cannot built its future on banks and burger bars. Similarly our miniscule industry cannot continue with its blind adherence to nostalgia, sentimentality and worst of all, selective commentary from what was assumed to be a free press. Please David ....... prove me wrong.

The answer, if indeed it isn’t too late, is for makers to supply the market with products that people want at prices they perceive as both affordable and of value. That's what the Apple i-pod is all about - in commercial terms. If you can envisage a more practical response, I’d love to hear it.

Being, as it seems to me, an apologist for poor management, lack of foresight, corporate arrogance and hubris - is the road to disaster.

Meanwhile, a little homework if you feel inclined. Using 1983 as a convenient starting point, why not look at the 'start' prices of the Michell Gyro and LP12 - and chart the comparative rise in price during the 25 years since then. You'll probably agree that both companies have progressively improved their products during the period. Possibly you'll agree that today, as was the case 25 years ago, that the sonic differences are not substantial. The RRP differences today are though. The LP12 was, from memory about 30% more expensive than the Gyro in 1982. The percentage differential today is staggering. Meanwhile Michell Engineering, Rega, Avid, Funk, Nottingham Analogue and so on operate with the same Government in power as Linn do. Nuff said?

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[griffo104]

Linn made a couple of poor business decisions, imo , which lead to their downfall a little.
1. The Unidisk players. As good as these are, and they are very good, most high end hifi manufacturers were simply getting a cheap Pioneer universal player, adding in a fancy PSU and the odd better component (all this is arguable) and selling them on at a huge price difference over the original player. Linn made the mistake of trying to design one from the ground up and even though they got in league with Sony and another digital specialist, it still meant that they had much more R'n'D costs then their competitors and subsequently the price of the components was also too high. The Unidisk was good but it didn't offer that much better performance over the Denon DVD2900 (I bought one of these over a Unidisk and still love the player to bits).

2. Getting rid of the LK range. I liked the LK range, it was affordable, reliable and compact. I liked the upgrade to active, I liked the sneaky tuner. Getting rid of that meant you went from the Classik straight up to the Majik range. I like the Majik range but the minimum it's going to cost is £7k, then add extra power amps and go active an it clear £10k. I went active with mk LK gear (including speakers and 3 amps) for about £4k.

3. Howard's great oint at the bottom there. The LP12 may be iconic, and a decent deck, but a lot of it's main contenders offer decks that out perform it at considerably less cost. He mentions the LP12 v Gyro. When I was getting in to vinyl a lot of people were swapping LP12s for Gyro, I swapped mine for an Orbe SE. No contest, the Michell is a better deck, more modern thinking, looks great, superb build and Michell are a great company to deal with. As are most of the others Howard mentions. Linn can't kill the LP12 but it needs to go back to being competitive and make people want to add back to the list of desirable decks.

[Neil McCauley]

The LP12 may be iconic, and a decent deck, but a lot of it's main contenders offer decks that out perform it at considerably less cost. Linn can't kill the LP12 but it needs to go back to being competitive and make people want to add back to the list of desirable decks.

Mission impossible.

Comparable in difficulty to making the World's finest slide rule in the age of pocket calculators.

To achieve longevity of the LP12 would need the corporate intellect that Porsche have applied to the seemingly immortal 911. Given recent strategic mishaps at Linn (cogently cited by you earlier, and thank you), coupled with what I believe is monumental arrogance and a lack of humility, I can't see it happening. For sake of the workforce I hope I'm wrong.

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[griffo104]

Mission impossible.

Comparable in difficulty to making the World's finest slide rule in the age of pocket calculators.

To achieve longevity of the LP12 would need the corporate intellect that Porsche have applied to the seemingly immortal 911. Given recent strategic mishaps at Linn (cogently cited by you earlier, and thank you), coupled with what I believe is monumental arrogance and a lack of humility, I can't see it happening. For sake of the workforce I hope I'm wrong.

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I wouldn't disgree with you there. A new LP12 with the new Ekos, Keel, Akiva and Linto phono is worryingly expensive compared to other decks out there at the moment, and as mentioned with regards to the uk mags and uk manufacturers, we are seeing some great decks coming from outside the UK. These are being more readily available and thanks to the internet are also allowing people to purchase and import them if they are willing to take the gamble.

The LP12 has that classic turntable look, which is timeless, but it's become the bargain 2nd hand deck rather than new desirable purchase.

Look at Rega, who you correctly point out. they now have decks at most price ranges and the differences are quite easy to spot, better RB arms, better motors, different platter materials but all essentially a similar design, similar styles. Linn brought the Majik LP12 out, not a rethinking or a redesign which they would have been capable off but an old Valhalla style deck with somebody else's arm on it.

It hasn't re-invented the LP12 at a lower price bracket but simply regurgitated it. Why buy that when you could get a classik Valhalla LP12 with an Ittok for less than half the price of the Majik ? Are you really going to chose the Majik LP12 against a modern Gyro/Technoarm ? Very doubtful.

I do think with the new DS components Linn have made a GOOD decision in dripping hard drive based systems, something Naim will realise with the poorly priced and specced HDX, but in other areas Linn have to rebuild what people like myself were first drawn to them as a manufacturer of hifi gear.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Using 1983 as a convenient starting point, why not look at the 'start' prices of the Michell Gyro and LP12 - and chart the comparative rise in price during the 25 years since then. You'll probably agree that both companies have progressively improved their products during the period. Possibly you'll agree that today, as was the case 25 years ago, that the sonic differences are not substantial. The RRP differences today are though. .............. The percentage differential today is staggering. Meanwhile Michell Engineering, Rega, Avid, Funk, Nottingham Analogue and so on operate with the same Government in power as Linn do. Nuff said?

The most outrageous example of this pricing policy is, I believe, the case of the Akito tonearm.

In 1986 the LVX was £114 while an RB300 was £90.
The Akito, although a little better than the LVX (also made in Japan by the way), it's not by that much. The last time I looked it was just nudging £1000, while the RB300 is £188 today. I tried to find a price for an Akito just now, but I think Linn dealers must be too ashamed to publish this atrocity (and so they should be).

[Spectral Morn]

Very interesting thread, how nice it is to read Howard P's words again. Nice to see you back.

Firstly the staff of Linn who have just lost there jobs, through no fault of their own(mostly those who made mistakes, know who they are). You have my sympathy, its a truly crap thing to happen to you. I know only to well as back in late sept I lost my job as manager of a hi-fi shop. Its like a death and a type of grief comes over you plus anger and frustration. The one nice thing is that since the last time I was out of work(13 years ago) Job centers have improved and are not quite as humiliating as they used to be. Whether you get a job or not with the way things are now, well thats another question/hope.

I have never been much of a Linn fan but I did hear a Linn Karrik and Numerik earlier this year and they were not quite as bad as I thought they would be(multi-bit version I think).

An earlier post in this thread referred to Sony and Betamax. The only mistake Sony made(and still do)is they would not licence Betamax in the way JVC did VHS. Betamx was better but as Sony would not licence it JVC stepped in and won that battle(Video rentals helped too).

Good thread with a real human cost behind it.

Regards D S D L

[David Price]

Hi Howard,

Well, to be honest I wasn't being disingenuous. If you think so, it suggests you think I know more than I do know. It certainly wasn't wilful. Maybe I am not as well informed as you? (Quite likely, given your industry experience).

But my point was simply that Linn are British, and alive, and we should support them because of this. I wouldn't pretend for a moment that I agree with every last decision Ivor has made, but I think by and large Linn have been (and are) a good thing for UK plc and for hi-fi in general.

I think they need to lock on to the enthusiast audiophile market a bit more keenly than they have done (after all, that was what 'made them' in the first place, and agree that some of their pricing decisions have been a tad 'optimistic'. But then we see bits of kit like the Sneaky DS, which are almost underpriced compared to rival designs. So it's not all a one-way street.

I think a lot of problems emanated from Ivor's illness; the chap he entrusted to run the company didn't display a 'feel' for the market that Linn had for so long catered for. It's good to see Ivor back, and more importantly perhaps, Gilad (his son) who is a very sharp guy. I hope they use the DS range to claw back their cred (and market share).

I know many have objections to Linn for all sorts of reasons. Like Manchester United FC, if you're the biggest you'll be the recipient of the most criticism, but my point remains - they're a high quality British manufacturer and for that reason all power to their elbow. I also feel the same about Messrs Naim, Arcam, Meridian, Cyrus etc. If that's 'magazine bias', well fair enough - but let's remind ourselves of the fact that a country like ours deserves a serious hi-fi industry, and not knock it. The lesson of Rover Cars is there for all to see; actually they made some really good products (although not all), but the media just loved to knock them - witness Mr Clarkson et al.

I don't think anyone can argue that Linn deserves to fail, can they?

[David Price]

By the way, I completely agree about your last point - and Griffo too - that Linn need to pay heed to pricing and value. The Michell was £595 in the early eighties when the Linn was £376 (IIRC) and now it's the reverse. I also think the Keel is too expensive, and have reservations about other products too - but these are particular detail points; I don't think that should damn the entire company.

I think what's needed is a truly mass-market, high quality audio solution (like the iPod) - and UK PLC needs to get its finger out here. It saddens me that so many hi-fi companies have been asleep at the wheel with computer audio - and I should know because 9 years and 10 months ago I wrote the first edition of 'Computer Audio World', only to be greeted by a collective shrug of 'what on earth are you on about?' from the (British) industry. Now Samsung, Denon, Logitech, Terratec, Sony, LG, Revo, Electrocompaniet, Slim, Roku, etc. all have network music players and where's the UK hi-fi market in this? The upshot is that very few hi-fi dealers can sell network music players, and the customers go to PC World instead.

[Neil McCauley]

Hi Howard,

I don't think anyone can argue that Linn deserves to fail, can they?

Good to see your here again David. But .......... I take the Darwinian view about survival of the fittest. Presumably that was Linn's view re Fons, Dunlop, Ariston et al? Why should it be otherwise today?

David - WHY should we support them because they are BRITISH?

It's as silly as all-women short-lists for parliamentary selection. Surely this country deserves to support all those BRITISH companies which are World Class because they are demonstrably World Class and not through some misplaced sentimentality. BS Meridian are arguably World Class when it comes to digital replay and based on this truly deserve media support. Purveyors of corporate arrogance and mother-knows-best attitudes to end-users, magazines and the retail network might also, albeit reluctantly, be similarly deserving - if and only if they provide products that mean something to the target market. Where are the makers of the World Class slide rules today? Or makers of abacus either for that matter? Probably blaming the Government I guess.

My company Subjective Audio - under my sole control - failed in 1988 because I was apparently a great leader while at the same time being a crap and financially inept manager. I and my staff paid the price. In my case £0.25m - which I didn't have but was under threat of eviction for my family by HSBC given 1 year to find. I certainly didn't look for scapegoats. My ethos is to look for personal accountability first. The answer for commercial disasters like mine usually lies at the feet of the founder and/or figurehead. In contrast the company I started in 1998 – Cognisco Limited http://www.cognisco.com/about-us/new...iew.php?Id=181 – became (and remains) a global success because, in part, I let somebody else run it!

The point is that why should hard-working skilled staff be made redundant because of management ineptitude? I'm still financially inept and so I don't employ anyone.

It may be common place through all walks of industry and I see no reason why the audio world should any different. Moreover of course it's cosy and nice to see the British audio industry survive, but only if they deliver products that people want to buy.

Your point re Rover is well made. The media knocked them because they (in the main) shipped crap products that were overpriced. I had 3 x SD1 + others. Like Linn, they demonstrated corporate arrogance and looked for scapegoats, like Linn. as I said before, Rega and Michell toil under the same Government as Linn. You don't hear them bleating do you?

As for Mr T picking the wrong guy to run the business, well that very convenient too. Anyone can make a recruiting mistake. I certainly have. Surely the question is why did it take so long to do anything about it? Oh no ... I've got it ... it was the Government's fault – again. Ah, that's better. all neat and tidy now.

Maybe the scores and scores of hapless redundant workers should have the last word on this because the man that apparently didn't spot all this until they all got their redundancy notices is still in charge. "Meet the new boss - same as the old boss" - to quote Mr P. Townshend

Or perhaps they should sell the whole silly thing to Antony Michaelson? He's certainly got the track record of success. You won't catch him shoehorning his gear into overpriced supercars, despite the fact he owns one! He'd reason, I guess, that ego trips are only worthwhile if they make money and anything else is an indulgence.

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