And so the next major audiophile engineering challenge is, err, well what?

[niklasthedolphin]

I can. And I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on whether or not that distinction adds legitimacy or destroys objectivity.

Tim

Objectivity is non-existing.

Not even in real science.
It's many years ago science went from the theory of putting everything into formula and startet including the researchers and the measuring tools' influence on the result instead with the Super Dynamic Hypothesis.
Evolution took it further from there.
But basicaly the scientist and the measuring apparatuses' influence on the results are still within evaluation.

Therefor:
Objectivity will always be approximations.

In particular when we have listening experiences in focus, subjectivity will be influencing perception.
All your physiologocal senses are subjective perception in your brain, as are all experiences you have through life.
Experiences evokes feelings.

Would you ever be objective about your love to your girlfriend or wife?

"dolph"

[niklasthedolphin]

How very, very true Stan. And it's most refreshing to hear it coming from a respected audio designer

Here's another: audio tubes from manufacturer to manufacturer and vintage to vintage often (easily) sound different, yet measure exactly the same (I have witnessed this) using known parameters...

Clue: those last two words are very important!

Quite simply, where audio is concerned, science currently can't provide all the answers; that's why we have to use the God-given things attached to the sides of our heads and have faith in them, or forever remain uncertain and disillusioned.

Marco.

In this, I agree with you.

To ad up, there are a lot of parameters we talt about as quality in the reproduction of music but don't have words for, neither units for.

How to meassure e.g. Stereo Perspective, naturalness, texturality, readiness and so forth?

And no units like V for Voltage or Ohm for resistance exists for more than the basic parameters.

(Excuse me if my english is bad - I'm not brought up with the language)

"dolph"

[Hozepipe]

EDIT (I had managed to chop off the quote I was referring to, it's back now)

Quite simply, where audio is concerned, science currently can't provide all the answers ; that's why we have to use the God-given things attached to the sides of our heads and have faith in them, or forever remain uncertain and disillusioned.

Marco.

Got a crystal ball there have you Marco?

I think it's more prudent to say "where audio is concerned, science currently can't provide all the answers...yet."

Oh bum. I retract! I retract! - didn't see 'currently'. Serves me right for rushing.

Apolos Marco, carry on

Talking about God:
God created man in his liking. But man is fallible and not perfect.
Man created measuring parameters and test instruments. Would you accept as fact any answers provided by an instrument created by an imperfect man?

Oh dear. The 'Magic Man' hypothesis rears its head, I knew it wouldn't be long. There's just so much wrong there. Its a tautology for starters: using your definitions to substantiate your conclusions can get you absolutely anywhere you like.

s

[Labarum]

O dear. Straying into theology now?

The St Anselm's Motto should be followed. The process should be one of

fides quaerens intellectum

faith seeking understanding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proslogion

[Hozepipe]

O dear. Straying into theology now?

The St Anselm's Motto should be followed. The process should be one of

fides quaerens intellectum

faith seeking understanding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proslogion

Er, no. But it looks like you are.

[Labarum]

Er, no. But it looks like you are.

I do love your "Ya Boo Sucks" style of argument, Hozepipe.

[Hozepipe]

Well you've got to have a laugh haven't you

[Primalsea]

I think what we're getting at here is that listening is a personal thing. Therefore it really shouldn't matter what everyone in the word thinks. If you think Joy Division is refreshingly uplifting then it is, to you. On the other hand its really not up to you to insist that what you like should be liked by all others.

You could consider that if enough people have the same thoughts of a piece of hifi then it must have that attribute. However you then get into another issue: Loads of people like Naim does that mean that it is any good?? Loads of other people don't.

[Labarum]

Loads of people like . . .<insert what you choose> . . . does that mean that it is any good?? Loads of other people don't.

But I am always wary of "the Emperors New Clothes" syndrone.

[Primalsea]

Exactly!! Rely on yourself as its you who has to listen to it. Look at all the fuss over the Leak St20. While a good amp I don't think it to be anything special. If you look now they don't go for anything like the same price they were when the fad was in force.

However another forum member got one and thinks its the best amp he's ever had. Thats good for him as I don't have to listen to it, he does so its a good thing he has what he likes and its not for me to say he's wrong.