why no mc from croft?

[kininigin]

This has been on my mind a little lately,from what i can gather most people seem to think mc's are better than mm's sonically(i may have this assumption wrong) and i see alot more people using them than mm's.

So why does glen croft not have this option in his designs?

And if he thinks that mm's are better which makes does he rate?

Does he test with a particular make? Is there a mm which is a perfect match for his phono stages?

[worrasf]

Hi Darren,

I have had this conversation with Glenn as I own a couple of his excellent creations. The following is his response to my question - not marked confidential etc so I'm sure (hope) he won't mind.

"I can't recommend any MC stages as I don't like the principle, results or pricing of MC's.
The best operating principle for a cartridge is Moving Iron - this results in the lowest possible mass attached to the cantilever and places the heavy coils and magnets in the body where they cause no problems. The best exponent of this is the Decca which uses the cantilever itself as the moving iron part - all they need is to be assembled properly with a decent tip and to be used in a suitable arm.
I would get a genuine Decca Blue and send it off to the "Garrott brothers" in Australia.
Best regards,
Glenn."

Well, I took him at his word and obtained a fine Decca Blue which was subsequently overhauled by Presence Audio and is delivering stunning results.

I have used various Croft preamps over the last few years all with MM inputs and so have not used a MC since I got rid of my LP12/Ittok/Troika

I don't think there are any MM's that are specific matches for the Croft MM phono stage I have used Astatic MF-100, Reson Reca, AT 150 mlx, Nagaoka MP11 Boron, Music Maker III and latterly the Decca Blue.

IMHO there is much to be gained by swapping valves in the Croft. Glenn builds his amps around readily available current production valves and I am in no doubt that replacing these with NOS versions will bring about definite sonic improvements. You can "tune" your amp to the sound you want to a large extent by your choice of valves. In my 25R preamp I finally settled on a NOS Brimar 6060 for the phono stage (even better than my NOS Telefunken ECC801s) and a quad of NOS Philips Miniwatt 12AX7's. The Series 4s power amp allows huge choice of valves. Sorry, I digress but hope this is of some help.

Steve

[kininigin]

Hi Darren,

I have had this conversation with Glenn as I own a couple of his excellent creations. The following is his response to my question - not marked confidential etc so I'm sure (hope) he won't mind.

"I can't recommend any MC stages as I don't like the principle, results or pricing of MC's.
The best operating principle for a cartridge is Moving Iron - this results in the lowest possible mass attached to the cantilever and places the heavy coils and magnets in the body where they cause no problems. The best exponent of this is the Decca which uses the cantilever itself as the moving iron part - all they need is to be assembled properly with a decent tip and to be used in a suitable arm.
I would get a genuine Decca Blue and send it off to the "Garrott brothers" in Australia.
Best regards,
Glenn."

Well, I took him at his word and obtained a fine Decca Blue which was subsequently overhauled by Presence Audio and is delivering stunning results.

I have used various Croft preamps over the last few years all with MM inputs and so have not used a MC since I got rid of my LP12/Ittok/Troika

I don't think there are any MM's that are specific matches for the Croft MM phono stage I have used Astatic MF-100, Reson Reca, AT 150 mlx, Nagaoka MP11 Boron, Music Maker III and latterly the Decca Blue.

IMHO there is much to be gained by swapping valves in the Croft. Glenn builds his amps around readily available current production valves and I am in no doubt that replacing these with NOS versions will bring about definite sonic improvements. You can "tune" your amp to the sound you want to a large extent by your choice of valves. In my 25R preamp I finally settled on a NOS Brimar 6060 for the phono stage (even better than my NOS Telefunken ECC801s) and a quad of NOS Philips Miniwatt 12AX7's. The Series 4s power amp allows huge choice of valves. Sorry, I digress but hope this is of some help.

Steve

hi steve,

That perfectly explains to me why he doesn't like mc's and who am i to argue with the man.

I've never heard of moving iron carts before so will look into them and see what's out there.

Im using a nag mp 110 atm and it's ok and im enjoying it but i think it's holding the croft back somewhat.

I don't want to go the sut route and would like to keep to glen's 'philosophy' as much as possible.

As for valves i know next to nothing about them and what to look for could you point me in the right direction?

[worrasf]

As for valves i know next to nothing about them and what to look for could you point me in the right direction?

Pleasure,

Looking at the 25micro specs your amp uses 3 ECC83 valves (my 25R has 4 ECC83 and 1 ECC81 by comparison). I expect if you still have the original valves supplied by Glenn they will be JJ ECC83 or JJ ECC803s or Sovtek ECC83 which are new production valves.

There is a wealth of info on the web but a good place to start is http://www.audiotubes.com/12ax7.htm
http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/ECC83.htm
http://www.watfordvalves.com/

ECC83 is the european terminology - in the US exactly the same valve is known as 12AX7. You will see from the above links that there are also many subtle variations on the above which are also compatible.

As a general rule valves produced in the 1950's - 70's will sound much "better" than modern valves. Ideally you want to get new and never used valves known as New Old Stock (NOS) but even previously used valves from a reputable dealer and fully tested can be fine. I have read some wouldn't touch none new valves because of risk of failure etc - I have never had a duff old valve.

They all sound different and it depends on what "sound" you prefer as to which ones you go for although be prepared to experiment.

Mullard and Brimar sound full and warm
Telefunkens TESLA (original not new production) very dynamic detailed highs lighter bass
Amperex/Phillips superb midband and IMHO in my croft the best of all worlds.

If you buy 3 then try and get a matched set.

IMHO avoid JJ Tesla, Electro Harmonix and new release of anything such as Tesla and TungSol (in contrast original TESLA and TungSol from the 60's are brilliant).

I have deliberately been opinionated here (not the usual line on AoS) as I have spent hours and much dollar getting to where I am confident in recommendations but as always it depends on musical taste/preference.

Ebay is a great place for valves - I have bought dozens and never had a duff purchase. I did buy a valve tester to be sure but all valves I bought from Ebay tested good.

Watford Valves are a good reliable source of new valves including NOS items.

One of the variants to the 12ax7/ecc83 is the 5751 - this has a lower gain than the stock 12ax7/ecc83 which can "tame" a slightly bright high end. The JAN GE 5751 is superb in this respect. JAN (Joint Army Navy) is a military spec tube so very robust. Having a lower gain it is quiet with low microphonics and is becoming very popular for audio use.

I just happen to have 4 NOS of these and you are very welcome to try them out if you want to.

Hope this helps, happy to look at any potential purchases if you send me the link.

Be aware, once you start tube rolling you are on the road to madness

Steve

[MartinT]

I have a rare Croft SIP preamp with a fixed MC stage. He must have forgotten that one

[kininigin]

Pleasure,

Looking at the 25micro specs your amp uses 3 ECC83 valves (my 25R has 4 ECC83 and 1 ECC81 by comparison). I expect if you still have the original valves supplied by Glenn they will be JJ ECC83 or JJ ECC803s or Sovtek ECC83 which are new production valves.

There is a wealth of info on the web but a good place to start is http://www.audiotubes.com/12ax7.htm
http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/ECC83.htm
http://www.watfordvalves.com/

ECC83 is the european terminology - in the US exactly the same valve is known as 12AX7. You will see from the above links that there are also many subtle variations on the above which are also compatible.

As a general rule valves produced in the 1950's - 70's will sound much "better" than modern valves. Ideally you want to get new and never used valves known as New Old Stock (NOS) but even previously used valves from a reputable dealer and fully tested can be fine. I have read some wouldn't touch none new valves because of risk of failure etc - I have never had a duff old valve.

They all sound different and it depends on what "sound" you prefer as to which ones you go for although be prepared to experiment.

Mullard and Brimar sound full and warm
Telefunkens TESLA (original not new production) very dynamic detailed highs lighter bass
Amperex/Phillips superb midband and IMHO in my croft the best of all worlds.

If you buy 3 then try and get a matched set.

IMHO avoid JJ Tesla, Electro Harmonix and new release of anything such as Tesla and TungSol (in contrast original TESLA and TungSol from the 60's are brilliant).

I have deliberately been opinionated here (not the usual line on AoS) as I have spent hours and much dollar getting to where I am confident in recommendations but as always it depends on musical taste/preference.

Ebay is a great place for valves - I have bought dozens and never had a duff purchase. I did buy a valve tester to be sure but all valves I bought from Ebay tested good.

Watford Valves are a good reliable source of new valves including NOS items.

One of the variants to the 12ax7/ecc83 is the 5751 - this has a lower gain than the stock 12ax7/ecc83 which can "tame" a slightly bright high end. The JAN GE 5751 is superb in this respect. JAN (Joint Army Navy) is a military spec tube so very robust. Having a lower gain it is quiet with low microphonics and is becoming very popular for audio use.

I just happen to have 4 NOS of these and you are very welcome to try them out if you want to.

Hope this helps, happy to look at any potential purchases if you send me the link.

Be aware, once you start tube rolling you are on the road to madness

Steve

wow,cheers for the info steve,looks like i've got some reading to do.

I would love to try the JAN GE 5751 to see if this is a route i want to go down.

As you've said my pre uses 3 valves 2 for the phone and 1 for the line.I take it the phono are for left and right channel and the line uses one valve for both channels? If that's the case,what type would i need for the line stage?

Just been looking at a few decca's there a bit out my current price range (why do i have to have more than 1 expensive hobby ) atm but look interesting maybe some poker wins will get me in the right direction

How about these valves http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT would they be worth considering and how much should you pay for them?

[worrasf]

I would use the same valve type for line and phono.

If you PM me your address etc I'll send you 3 JAN GE 5751's on appro

Steve

[worrasf]

Sorry, didn't read to the bottom of your post - the TFK's look OK - I'd suggest £60 pair max.

Give the 5751's a listen before punting for the TFK's - I think you'll be very pleased with the difference over the stock valves in your Pre.

Steve

[kininigin]

pm sent

[hifi_dave]

I have a rare Croft SIP preamp with a fixed MC stage. He must have forgotten that one

It's a long and involved story which I don't feel qualified to tell but basically, for the ten years previous to early last year when the new amps appeared, Glenn didn't produce all of the products under his name. A lot of the gear was produced without his say so or even knowledge and that includes MC phono stages.

Glenn's MM phono stages are legendary and when you hear a well set up London/Decca through one, you have to agree that MC's are, perhaps, not the best way of playing your vinyl.