Does size matter?

[Lowrider]

Until AV and WAF spawned good reasonably priced subwoofers, I always had 3 way floorstanders, the last where a pair of KEF 104.2 bought around 1986

Since year 2000, all my speaker solutions include one or two subwoofers, first with standmounts, now with open baffle, much easier to integrate, and they do real bass, unlike most floorstanders up to budgets I cannot afford...

[sastusbulbas]

Until AV and WAF spawned good reasonably priced subwoofers, I always had 3 way floorstanders, the last where a pair of KEF 104.2 bought around 1986

Since year 2000, all my speaker solutions include one or two subwoofers, first with standmounts, now with open baffle, much easier to integrate, and they do real bass, unlike most floorstanders up to budgets I cannot afford...

I myself though not into "Subs" do think they have a place. To be honest I should probably get one or two just because of movies.

I watch a lot of movies, and to be honest I think many of them do not have certain LF effects passed effectively to stereo mains either through processors or PCM conversion.
Too many of them seem to lack a certain oomph when via stereo. (unlike some LD's)

[Lowrider]

Properly setup subwoofers sound better than most speakers, but they rarely are properly setup...

Manufacturers suggest wrong setup, like REL, of course they will suggest high-level, to be able to sell to those that have conventional stereo systems...

Than you have to integrate speakers and subs with not adequate frequency rollout, a bad compromise, even worst, on AV systems if you dial different time delay for the speakers and subwoofer, the processor first applies delay, than mixes all channels with LFE, a mess...

If you use an active filter, AV processor (like me), or the ADM9s, or a Beringher, no time delay difference between channels, even if they are not at the same distance, two subwoofers near the front speakers, or one between them, closed box subwoofers, you cannot go wrong...

[MartinT]

I would contend that REL's recommendation to use high level is *not* poor advice within the context of a stereo audio system. I have the option of a second preamp output to drive the REL from signal level but the high level connection helps to integrate the REL's sound seamlessly with the main speakers. This is important as I have the REL set to the lowest octave only (23Hz) with the main speakers giving good output to below 30Hz. I have plotted graphs to ensure that the overall frequency response is as flat as possible.

Because I don't use AV (I wouldn't entertain an LFE channel in my purist system) the overall setup can be properly optimised for a flat response rather than the bass hump typical of an AV system.

[Lowrider]

I would contend that REL's recommendation to use high level is *not* poor advice within the context of a stereo audio system.

On the contrary, it is rich, for them, to sell a lot more subwoofers...

the high level connection helps to integrate the REL's sound seamlessly with the main speakers.

I dont call help sending the distortion of the bass made by the amplifier to the subwoofer, I call help relieving the amplifier and the speakers of playing those more difficult frequencies, with the extra advantage of making placing the speakers easier too, best possible imaging and timbre, without worrying with bass...

the overall setup can be properly optimised for a flat response rather than the bass hump typical of an AV system

There are bass humps and boom in the average stereo system too, the way most people place their speakers, more so with floorstanders...

Having said that, I believe you have good bass, but could have better with less difficult setup...

[MartinT]

I call help relieving the amplifier and the speakers of playing those more difficult frequencies

Ah - there is our confusion. You're talking about filtering the main feed to the L/R speakers to relieve them of reproducing deep bass, usually when the speakers are small. I don't use any filtering, my main speakers play the full range and the REL is there only to 'fill in' the lowest octave. Providing a high level feed ensures that the character of the bass through the power amp is retained, making the whole speaker system sound as one. By the way, my power amp doesn't distort even at the highest levels of playback I can sustain since there is huge headroom available.

[Lowrider]

All I said still applies, but, of course, non "ideal" setups can still work well with good gear and carefull tunning...

All power amps distort...

[MartinT]

All power amps distort...

I know that, I was originally an electronics engineer
I was really referring to clipping.

[Ashley James]

Steve, there will be slightly more expensive ADM9's available shortly with two optical digital inputs and using the "Best DAC in the World" as Linn are claiming for the WM8741 in something they've just announced.

The USB version uses an Audio Codec and there isn't room for that as well. Demand for it has been small.

We shan't use an 8" drive unit in a two way because the mid range always suffers and neither would it be possible to achieve the seamless integration of ADM9s as they are.

British amps are mostly underpowered, they don't have sufficient headroom for the dynamic range of many modern recordings, which is why people are always asking for advice on getting rid of boomy bass or harsh treble. Their amp is clipping.

Neither do many Loudspeakers designers realise that all the box and port do is produce a narrow band resonance that adds to what's coming from the front of the speaker to produce a "balanced" sound at the expense of accuracy. The drive unit size dictates how much actual bass it can produce just as the width of a canoe paddle dictates how fast you can make it go.

Therefore if you have a boomy two-way already trying to produce too much bass, a clipping amp putting bursts of DC into it, then a Subwoofer is going to make things worse! Especially as most of this type of Bass is time rather than amplitude related.

Interestingly some pop music's bass is made by lengthening the duration of the note to give the impression of greater volume.

However, a well designed two way with properly controlled bass will give good results with a Subwoofer if it too, has sufficient power to avoid clipping. Cabinet loading is crucial.

Bass radiates through 360 degrees so whether a port is in the front or rear of a cabinet makes no difference. Passive crossovers do because they reduce the control the amplifier has on the speaker cone. Overshoot and overhang cause boominess and also reduce mid range clarity.

Designing loudspeakers is a delicate balance act and more involved than many realise.

[WikiBoy]

British amps are mostly underpowered, they don't have sufficient headroom for the dynamic range of many modern recordings, which is why people are always asking for advice on getting rid of boomy bass or harsh treble. Their amp is clipping.

This is complete nonsense. It is the load that drives an amplifier into clipping. AND what clipping are you talking about voltage or current they a different and sound different and are caused by different load characteristics. It is the stupidity of some loudspeaker manufacturers over complicating design in order to achieve some aspect of "neutrality" or perceived "accuracy" creating extreme conditions for the amplifer, like trying to make it drive voltage and current 180deg out of phase with each other due to ridiculously over complex crossovers, and undersized low resistance voice coils, or creating cabinet designs that absorb so much of the work undertaken that it is miracle sometimes anything gets out. To blame British amplifier manufacturers for producing under powered amplifiers is like blaming Madonna for not having as big a breasts as Munroe, pointless and self defeating nonsense.

There are people who design horn loaded high efficiency creations that can be driven quite acceptably by half a watt!!!!!

An amplifier and a loudspeaker is a partnership, and like all partnerships unless it is empathic and not dominated by the biggest ego, you get music. It is that simple.