T/T Drive Systems - various conundrums and conclusions

[Marco]

Hi John,

Have a good read through this thread, particularly towards the end:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=201

If there's anything specific you'd like to know just ask

Marco.

[griffo104]

Marco,

An excellent write up. I've yet to read the Monaco TT review, it's in a backlog of hifi mags I need to catch up on.

One point I would raise with regards your comments though, and that is should a magazine review a modded piece of gear, especially a piece modded by someone other than the manufacturer themselves ?

To be fair to RG, his mag does have a habit of reviewing gear outside of the usual distribution arms in the UK but surely it's down to either KAB, or out of curiosity the mag themselves, to request a review ?

I heard a friend's SL1200 a few years ago, not sure how close this is the SL1210 and I was completely unmoved by it, his comment (not mine) was that he was sure the it would sound better once the arm had been either modded or changed for something else, in his case he was thinking of an RB300.

I understand what you are saying but surely if company the size of Technics (or panasonic as they may well be known only as now) could release the deck in stock form with a few extra mods then why don't they do it ?

[Marco]

Hi Griffo,

It's good to see you visiting us more often and contributing

One point I would raise with regards your comments though, and that is should a magazine review a modded piece of gear, especially a piece modded by someone other than the manufacturer themselves ?

Why not? It didn't stop David Price reviewing his modified SL-1210 in Hi-fi World... A review could easily be done of the SL-1210 in standard form and then an analysis of the KAB modifications to ascertain their effect. It's not just about single products, but also complete packages, especially when T/Ts are involved as they represent the sum of many parts.

To be fair to RG, his mag does have a habit of reviewing gear outside of the usual distribution arms in the UK but surely it's down to either KAB, or out of curiosity the mag themselves, to request a review ?

Of course, however I feel that people are being deprived of knowing how good the SL-1210 is when suitably modified, simply because unless you're part of the small group of people 'in the know' (i.e. you visit audio forums where relevant discussions are taking place or you've seen the KAB website) you'd have no idea what a modified 1210 is sonically capable of. Somehow the 'secret' needs to get out more into the public domain and therefore the modified 1210, KAB-effected or otherwise, appreciated by a wider audience. I would dearly love to facilitate the process!

There are people, for example, currently buying Regas, Pro-jects, Mitchells, and plenty of other decks, who perhaps if they were aware of the phenomenal performance available from a modified SL-1210 wouldn't be so quick in buying Regas or Pro-jects, etc: it's about educating people and giving them a choice, but they can't choose something if they don't know that it exists.

Like Guy says, there are some people who don't want the status quo disturbed (too bloody bad, I say!), and I believe the magazines are protecting the interests of the established UK T/T manufacturers, which is understandable, but it is ultimately restricting choice for the consumer. I remember during a telephone conversation with David Price him telling me that his modified SL-1210 pissed all over his Gyrodec and also an SME10 he had in for review, but he couldn't write that in the magazine for "obvious reasons". That's a true fact but I doubt that he'd admit it in public!

I heard a friend's SL1200 a few years ago, not sure how close this is the SL1210 and I was completely unmoved by it, his comment (not mine) was that he was sure the it would sound better once the arm had been either modded or changed for something else, in his case he was thinking of an RB300.

The 1200 and 1210 are identical in all but finish. One is silver (1200) and the other is black. There are no sonic differences whatsoever between them. I don't doubt your experience of the SL-1200, but I'm sure you're intelligent enough to realise that it isn't representative of how a fully modified deck sounds. If not, (lol!) I can tell you categorically from experience that it isn't. Also, an RB300 is in no way better than the stock Technics arm when Cardas rewired and fluid-damped, etc. It's only considered 'better' by some because that's what they've been told by so-called 'experts' in the audio press, or by dealers, both of whom may have hidden agendas, either that or they haven't heard both arms side by side and are therefore in a position to arrive at an informed conclusion. If you read the thread on Gromit's system in our Gallery you'll find some interesting observations there, and not just from me

I understand what you are saying but surely if company the size of Technics (or panasonic as they may well be known only as now) could release the deck in stock form with a few extra mods then why don't they do it ?

The answer is simply because they have *MUCH* bigger fish to fry in other areas of audio and consumer electronics. The market for such a product would be tiny and not commercially viable. And Technics (National Panasonic) are quite happy suppling 1000s of T/Ts to DJs in stock form without incurring extra costs to produce a product which in reality only a small minority of audio enthusiasts would be interested in buying.

I just wish someone in the UK would do what KAB does and therefore give more people in the UK and Europe easier access to a modified deck. I reckon it would be an excellent business opportunity for someone with the necessary skills. The key product is the off-board PSU, which apparently took Kevin from KAB some time to perfect due to the complicated nature of the SL-1210's internal electronics. The rest, however, would be easy-peasy, particularly to someone like J7 of Audio Origami.

As an aside, it was rumoured that Technics may be considering reintroducing the SL-120, which is the same deck but sold as a motor unit only without a tonearm. This of course would allow people to fit their favourite 'hi-end' tonearm of choice, provided it was physically compatible, and rid the deck of its so-called main 'weak spot'. If the Jap big boys go ahead with those plans, and get serious about supplying the audiophile T/T market, things will be very interesting indeed, and then God help the Regas, Pro-jects, Michells, etc, of this world...

Marco.

[griffo104]

Marco,

Very good points and I have no problems with KAB, been a very happy user of their RCM for a long time and the speed of delivery and service from them was excellent - as is often the case with companies I've used outside of the UK.

I understand your points about the review process and it would be interesting for another mag to pick up on this, RG does recommend some KAB accessories so I can't see why not.

Certainly the Technics 1200/1210 are gaining more popularity through the forums so they must be doing something right, especially with the KAB mods.

Is there a status quo ? It's funny but I listened to an SME 10 about 2.5 years ago and preferred the Orbe SE I subsequently bought . Was it a better deck ? In terms of accuracy probably not but in terms of enjoying the music being played back then, IMO, it was the better deck. I've chatted to a few people who hve looked strangely at me for stating that but it's more down to SME's reputation than those people actually listening to the two decks side by side (or even hearing either one of them, tbh). Some people form an opinion without any experience of the brands themselves.

Direct drives have a major problem, the ones my parents owned back when I was first getting in to music was dire, an old Trio deck. It was why I went straight to CD and not look in to vinyl more when I started in to this hobby - something I deeply regret now. I have to work all that DD nonsense out of my system

I suppose the Technics may suffer due to its DJ heritage but as you say that's also the reason why the deck has such a following in the first place.

Hearing a modded Garrard 301 a few years back, it was apparent how certain areas were far better than the LP12 that I had at the time, not all areas but certainly several of them and also how easy it was to sit back and enjoy the music coming from the grooves while listening to the deck.

It would be interesting to hear the modded Technics direct with my Orbe SE, may be we'll get around to meeting up and trying one day, would certainly be fun.

[DSJR]

If you want to play around cheaply, look out for an SL1600(fully auto), SL1700 (auto return) or SL1800(manual).

The above generation lacked the quartz locking, but were still highish torque/low overshoot models with very similar tonearms fitted, together with a sprung sub-chassis (not as bouncy as a Thorens).

They sound very similar to the 1200/1210 and can be got for around a ton or less, as noone knows what they can do. The auto ones are fine with a V15 at 1 gramme so don't worry about any friction increase or loading on the arm...

[David Price]

Wow - what a topic!

I think AOS is leading the way on this; most other forums still regard the SL1200 as something on a par to Dual 505 or suchlike, but not you guys!

As I've said to Marco, I think the SL1200 is deeply special; not because of what it is but what it can become when the cheap and nasty bits are circumvented or removed. The core of the deck - that motor and controller and top plate - is about as good as it gets anywhere these days. It's a sublime piece of engineering considering the cost it sells for. As everyone is remarking, the art then is to isolate the 'motor unit' properly and fit a decent arm. I know many here use the stock one, but I'd implore you to try something of the class on an OL Silver. The stock arm has an attractive 'fingerprint'; big, bassy and bouncy; but it is unsubtle and veiled in absolute terms.

I'm hoping to try the external PSU sometime - I wrote to Kevin two years ago but he wouldn't send me one for free. He didn't know who I was and/or didn't believe me; I guess he thought it was a scam.

Even without the PSU, I've found that my modded SL1200 can compete with most under £5,000. I say that after having done A-Bs against everything up to Avid Volvere Sequel/SME 10A/LP12 Keel level. I wouldn't say it is as good in every respect (particularly left-to-right soundstaging, where a Michell Gyro is still king), but the fundamental musicality is brilliant, as is the bass speed and grip. It's not as deep and weighty as the old Jap superdecks or Garrards, but it's brilliantly propulsive.

I can't believe some folks on other forums are still comparing it to a Rega - and unfavourably at that! Ha!

[David Price]

Marco,

Direct drives have a major problem, the ones my parents owned back when I was first getting in to music was dire, an old Trio deck. It was why I went straight to CD and not look in to vinyl more when I started in to this hobby - something I deeply regret now. I have to work all that DD nonsense out of my system
.

...this is what we're up against - it's like saying multivalve car engines have a problem because your dad's Triumph Dolomite Sprint used to blow its head gasket!

It's also just as wrong to say belt drives are crap because your brother's Dual didn't sound good, or idlers aren't good because of your uncle's Garrard SP25... It's not what you've got, but how well it's implemented.

For example, the Avid BDs have a short, taut belt with very little 'pliance'. This locks the motor to the subplatter/platter a lot more tightly than a long peripheral belt like the Michell. The result is tighter bass.

The same debate in DD is around the Sony/Denon system of a 'tape head' on the inner edge of the platter feeding back speed drift information, or the Technics system where it's done from the centre.

It's also important to remember that the drive is only one aspect of the sound. You could buy £100 quartz lock direct drives in the early eighties with 0.02% W&F (i.e. better than a Linn) that sounded God-awful. Designing a great deck is about drive stability, noise suppression (from the motor and from the environment) and zero information loss (from the main bearing and tonearm bearing).

My conclusion is that turntables are like people; a complex mix of competing strengths and weaknesses. The better the mix is, the better the t/t will be. You can't just isolate one point and obsess on it.

[Marco]

Hi David,

Wow - what a topic!

I think AOS is leading the way on this; most other forums still regard the SL1200 as something on a par to Dual 505 or suchlike, but not you guys!

Erm, in a word, no!

We're a little more open-minded here, David, and embrace the merits of both old and new technologies to create a good sound. Also our members are blissfully free of influence from the belt-drive/suspended chassis 'indoctrination' carried out by Linn in the 70s

As I've said to Marco, I think the SL1200 is deeply special; not because of what it is but what it can become when the cheap and nasty bits are circumvented or removed. The core of the deck - that motor and controller and top plate - is about as good as it gets anywhere these days.

Absolutely. But how do we impregnate this fact into the psyche of the uninitiated?

I have to say that your article in HFW has gone a long way to awakening people's interest in the SL-1200/1210, and because of that people have started asking questions on forums, word of mouth has spread accordingly, and now there has never been so much interest in the venerable old (new?) direct-driver.

I'm 'on the case' so much here because like you I genuinely believe that the Technics is special and represents quite phenomenal value for money; more so even in the 'sound-per-pound' stakes when its been judiciously modified as described. Then, quite simply, it enters the realms of a super-deck.

But it's a tough job trying to chip through years of baked-on prejudices!

It's a sublime piece of engineering considering the cost it sells for. As everyone is remarking, the art then is to isolate the 'motor unit' properly and fit a decent arm. I know many here use the stock one, but I'd implore you to try something of the class on an OL Silver. The stock arm has an attractive 'fingerprint'; big, bassy and bouncy; but it is unsubtle and veiled in absolute terms.

Hehe... Can I ask that you reserve final judgement until you've heard the arm fully modified, KAB and otherwise? Perhaps I could submit my 1210 for review and you could compare it to your modifed deck? It would be a good opportunity to introduce the KAB mods and suchlike to your readers, many of which as you know write in every month regarding queries on this very subject! I would of course respect your findings. Thing is, you won't know what the arm is capable of otherwise... If you still think it's crap then you can hit me over the head with it!

I'm hoping to try the external PSU sometime - I wrote to Kevin two years ago but he wouldn't send me one for free. He didn't know who I was and/or didn't believe me; I guess he thought it was a scam.

I think we can resolve this from what I've suggested above. I've spoken to Kevin since, though, and he knows who you are now so if you try again I think the results might be different.

Even without the PSU, I've found that my modded SL1200 can compete with most under £5,000. I say that after having done A-Bs against everything up to Avid Volvere Sequel/SME 10A/LP12 Keel level. I wouldn't say it is as good in every respect (particularly left-to-right soundstaging, where a Michell Gyro is still king), but the fundamental musicality is brilliant, as is the bass speed and grip. It's not as deep and weighty as the old Jap superdecks or Garrards, but it's brilliantly propulsive.

I totally agree, and my own listening experiences bear this out. Have you read my review of the Slatedeck SP10 vs. my KAB-modified SL-1210 in the 'Strokes of Genius' section? I think you might find it interesting.

I can't believe some folks on other forums are still comparing it to a Rega - and unfavourably at that! Ha!

Well, what can I say that I haven't already written many times before...

Marco.

[scoobs]

slobber

[John]

nearly bought an EMT a few years back but I pulled out in the end. I always regret that