Expensive CD players - worth it?

[Pigmy Pony]

No it's true I don't often expletives, but Madrigal really are a lousy company displaying no interest in aftersales service. It is not just me, hifi_dave will confirm my opinion - and he is in the trade.

What really annoyed me was Madrigal having bought out Levinson, decided they wanted everything 'under one roof', including their service department. That meant sacking all the service and repair engineers used by Levinson, and to make matters worse, they dispensed with all the specialised components that went into early ML gear.

A truly excellent repair expert in the UK: The High End Workshop, that specialises in upmarket US audio electronics, such as Mark Levinson, Audio Research, Krell etc. now no longer repair or service Levinson products, precisely because of Madrigal's lack of interest or help in older designs.

Madrigal are not the only company to do this: it's a fairly common practice these days. In the past if you bought say an amplifier, along with the installation and operating instructions, there would be a circuit diagram and a list of components, their makes and values. Thus if something went wrong a competent EE could diagnose the fault and repair the item. Not today!

These are the things no manufacturer or salesman will tell you at the point of sale Be nice if there was some kind of database pointing out the heroes and villains, and giving purchasers some degree of confidence that they will be supported, should things go tits up.

[Macca]

Nothing gets supported for ever, who can make such a guarantee? If there's enough demand a third party will come along to do that like with MG cars but expensive hi-fi is too niche. Added to which they want you to buy a new one.

Most things we get maybe ten or twenty years out of then accept we have to replace it. Why would hi-fi be different?

Stuff that barely lasts until the warrantee expires is a different matter, but that's usually just the bargain basement kit, you can't expect more at that level.

[Pigmy Pony]

Nothing gets supported for ever, who can make such a guarantee? If there's enough demand a third party will come along to do that like with MG cars but expensive hi-fi is too niche. Added to which they want you to buy a new one.

Most things we get maybe ten or twenty years out of then accept we have to replace it. Why would hi-fi be different?

Stuff that barely lasts until the warrantee expires is a different matter, but that's usually just the bargain basement kit, you can't expect more at that level.

You're right of course Martin, I hadn't thought it through properly. And if someone was deciding whether to spend on a new high-end bit of kit or roll the dice with an even better quality but ageing option, there will be enough info available to highlight the pros and cons. Just have to research it properly first. Like CD players with well-built but obsolete transports, or for instance Sony's unobtainable v-fet transistors and so-called "death diodes".

[Macca]

You're right of course Martin, I hadn't thought it through properly. And if someone was deciding whether to spend on a new high-end bit of kit or roll the dice with an even better quality but ageing option, there will be enough info available to highlight the pros and cons. Just have to research it properly first. Like CD players with well-built but obsolete transports, or for instance Sony's unobtainable v-fet transistors and so-called "death diodes".

I've bought a container load of second hand equipment over the years, these days the only thing I'd be comfortable buying used is speakers, and only if I can have a listen first to check there's no problems. Or if they were very cheap. Lots of perfectly good amps and DACs and CD players available new at reasonable prices, why take a chance spending thousands on something 20 odd years old?

Yes I bought my Sony pre second hand and it was 34 years old but it was £350 which I could afford to write off. And modern pre-amps are mostly bland or ugly looking, and the looks were my primary concern, so there wasn't another option.

The Krell power amps I have of the three, two needed work. Happily Alan sorted them out for me but I'd rather not rely on people being good enough to do favours and a commercial repair would have been very expensive since I know it took him a while to locate the issue and a commercial repair man would be billing you £50 an hour or more for that fault-finding time.

At the time I e-mailed Krell for the schematic which they e-mailed me back right away, which was helpful, but they are now no longer in business. I don't know exactly how many people have asked me for that schematic since but it's a fair few.

I probably have six or seven vintage CD players that all need fixing, which is almost certainly never going to happen. Buying this old stuff really makes no sense unless it's already been fully tested and any issues dealt with.

[Barry]

I have an iron that was manufactured in East Germany. It is 50 years old, and apart from me changing the cable, still works. I could replace the cable because the iron was designed to be repairable. Many domestic electrical items are not designed to be repaired: covers click into place with plastic barbed tongues which can't be undone. This makes the item a little cheaper to make, but more importantly makes it impossible to repair; so you have to buy anew.

I don't see why Madrigal cannot suggest outfits that are willing, and able, to service the older designs in their portfolio. It's all part of the modern attitude of buy, use and then throw away when it stops working.

[Macca]

I have an iron that was manufactured in East Germany. It is 50 years old, and apart from me changing the cable, still works. I could replace the cable because the iron was designed to be repairable. Many domestic electrical items are not designed to be repaired: covers click into place with plastic barbed tongues which can't be undone. This makes the item a little cheaper to make, but more importantly makes it impossible to repair; so you have to buy anew.

I don't see why Madrigal cannot suggest outfits that are willing, and able, to service the older designs in their portfolio. It's all part of the modern attitude of buy, use and then throw away when it stops working.

How many people could change the cord on an iron, how many would be confident doing that, how many would be competent to do that - no matter how confident they are? I think the answer is very few. The alternative is to pay someone competent to do it, which is more expensive than buying a new iron. So I think it is not so much 'attitude' as it is hard practical reality.

Madrigal/Mark Levinson are more interested in selling you a new amp than helping you find a repairer, I mean that's hardly surprising. It's a business, if it doesn't make money they're all out of a job and there's no profit in giving you free assistance to fix a product made 30 or 40 years ago when a lot of their employees were still at school or not even born yet.

There's the odd exception where the firm is small and privately owned, like Accuphase for example, and part of their USP is that you can just buy once and use it forever. But you pay a massive premium for that. Levinson has changed hands multiple times, I think it's a subsidiary of Samsung now. Levinson even sold his name. If you wanted an amp with cradle to grave support, you backed the wrong horse.

[Barry]

I still have equipment that had a 'cradle to grave' support: it was made by Quad, who then claimed they would repair and service any product they had made as long as parts and materials were available. Now that Quad is now owned by a Taiwanese company, that ability is no longer available.

You say the same promise is still made by Accuphase, if so that is good to know, but given what you say about Madrigal for how much longer?

[Barry]

Apropos my changing the cable on my iron, yes I was and still am competent to do it. But agree that many aren't. That is why every domestic electrical compliance now comes fitted with a mains plug. Some of the plugs have a removable cover so you can inspect the connections, with others the plug is moulded on and you cannot inspect the wiring. The latter sometimes are so badly fitted that a stray strand of wire has been known to have come through the plastic moulding.

So I check these things very carefully and would actually prefer to fit the plug myself. (It is also why I prefer to make up my audio cables. Some of the soldering done on commercial cables, be they RCA phono or XLR type, is often very poor and untidy.)

[Macca]

I still have equipment that had a 'cradle to grave' support: it was made by Quad, who then claimed they would repair and service any product they had made as long as parts and materials were available. Now that Quad is now owned by a Taiwanese company, that ability is no longer available.

You say the same promise is still made by Accuphase, if so that is good to know, but given what you say about Madrigal for how much longer?

It's always possible that at some point Accuphase would sell out to some big corporation but there's no sign of that happening. They deliberately limit production and how much they export, it's all in the old Japanese family craftsman tradition.

By contrast, Levinson IMO was a bit of a chancer. I think he was just a marketing man, I don't think he actually designed any of the equipment himself, he got people in to do it. And when he had the chance to sell the brand and even the rights to his name, he did so. Then IIRC he was bringing in cheap China-made equipment and selling it as 'Madrigal' for top dollar. Had a demo of it in New York years ago now (2000) wasn't impressed. It was not bad, but IMO not remotely worth the money.

Have to say I thought QUAD still had a UK based service department that supported all their kit, maybe that has gone now, I don't know.

[Marco]

That's why I like buying from specialist one-man bands, such as Anthony (Tube Distinctions) and Croft (Glenn Croft), whose equipment can be fixed or serviced as long as they remain alive, and if necessary afterwards by any competent EE. Nothing in their designs is 'unobtanium'

Marco.