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Thread: Cd wees wees over vinyl ?

  1. #21
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    I said this would open up a can of worms and it has.

    To do an A/B comparison between vinyl and CD is virtually impossible for the reasons Adrian has mentioned. The number of variables that arise with the pressing of Vinyl are many: for example how many copies are pressed from a stamper; early pressings will be better than later pressings. Then there is the quality of the vinyl itself. Some of you may remember the oil crisis of the late '60s when LPs used less vinyl than before and the records were much thinner. PVC was sometimes recycled, ether from the trimmings after pressing, or even from scrapped LPs that had been chipped up. The trouble is that PVC is a thermosetting plastic; once set it will not soften and flow on reheating. This means that if used PVC scrap is added to new, the overall mix is inferior to that of virgin vinyl.
    There are other factors involved: the pressure, temperature and time in the mould are all important. Get them wrong and a perfectly good looking sample from the press may have internal stresses which result in the record warping in time; something with which very little can be done afterwards.

    So that is the manufacturing side of things. Now there is the playback. The idea of dragging a tiny piece of diamond through a wiggly goove of the record is on the face of it absurd - but it works sufficiently well to be practicable. How this moving diamond is supported and allowed to track the record is the next problem. The great majority of tonearms (a misnomer from the days of acoustic gramophones, where the arm was the first part of a loudspeaker horn) are pivoted. It is impossible for a pivoted arm to exactly match the motion of the lacquer cutter: the arm moves in an arc, the cutter radially. Fortunately the acoustic distortion from these geometrical errors are second harmonic, so benign and euphonic. Even radial tracking arms are not without their problems - one of which is the requirement to use as short an arm as possible ( usually at least 6"), so as to prevent any yawing motion as the arm moves. A short arm means any warp wow is exacerbated.
    Finally there is the cartridge. Regardless of the type of electro-mechanical generator used, the shape of the stylus and material used for the cantilever are important. The stylus profile has to approximate the triangular cross section of the cutter and the cantilever has to be as stiff and rigid as possible. The grinding and polishing of ever exotic stylus profiles and the machining of exotic materials (boron, and even sapphire or diamond) for the cantilever is difficult and hence expensive. Again the unwanted deviation from linearity are predominantly second harmonic (several percent in magnitude), so are again audibly benign and euphonic.

    After all that it is remarkable that vinyl replay sounds as good as it does. IMO it can sound good, very good, but again IMO it cannot better CD for absolute fidelity. Furthermore good vinyl playback requires relatively expensive equipment, the records are fragile and need to be handled carefully and kept clean, whereas CD replay can use a relatively cheap transport, any expense occurs with the sophistication of the DAC.
    Last edited by Barry; 01-04-2024 at 19:43. Reason: 'Predictive' spelling corrected.

  2. #22
    Join Date: Mar 2016

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    Thanks Barry, but my understanding of hifi only goes so far as the What Hifi star system.
    Current system 1210 GR. CDP - Meridian G08. Amp -Sugden A21I - Sig. Wharfedale Lintons.

  3. #23
    Join Date: Jun 2015

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    I'm Lawrence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeandvan View Post
    Thanks Barry, but my understanding of hifi only goes so far as the What Hifi star system.
    You'll be destined to a lifetime of disappointment then

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  4. #24
    Join Date: Jun 2014

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeandvan View Post
    Thanks Barry, but my understanding of hifi only goes so far as the What Hifi star system.
    Star systems don't set the bar very high - I got a star at primary school for learning to tell the time
    I just dropped in, to see what condition my condition was in

    T/T: Inspire Monarch, X200 tonearm, Ortofon Quintet Blue. Phono: Project Tube Box CD: Marantz CD6006 (UK Edition); Amp: Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated.
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  5. #25
    Join Date: May 2016

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    I like both depending on my mood/situation. Actually I don't use CD's at all as they've all been ripped and accessed from my streamer along with Qobuz. Great for when I'm multitasking like watching cricket on the TV and listening to music but for relaxation I do like to settle down to a bit of vinyl which sounds just as good and sometimes better than digital sources.

  6. #26
    Join Date: Sep 2009

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    I use both formats as and when I feel like it. CD's are great, but some of the pressings are truly awful sounding, but they have memories attached to them so I still play them now and then.

    In the 80's, CD's were king for me... Although, I did still buy the vinyl version when I could.

    Vinyl is superior sounding for me.

    I used to stream music through my system but I can't be arsed now. It was great for a while but it just doesn't give me the same pleasure of something physical. So, system streaming for me streaming has gone along with the DO-DO. But streaming whilst in the car still seems to be okay... I still want to slot a cassette in now and then, though... There really isn't anything wrong with Cassettes.
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  7. #27
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Adder View Post
    I use both formats as and when I feel like it. CD's are great, but some of the pressings are truly awful sounding, but they have memories attached to them so I still play them now and then.

    In the 80's, CD's were king for me... Although, I did still buy the vinyl version when I could.

    Vinyl is superior sounding for me.

    I used to stream music through my system but I can't be arsed now. It was great for a while but it just doesn't give me the same pleasure of something physical. So, system streaming for me streaming has gone along with the DO-DO. But streaming whilst in the car still seems to be okay... I still want to slot a cassette in now and then, though... There really isn't anything wrong with Cassettes.
    In what way is vinyl superior sounding?
    Barry

  8. #28
    Join Date: Sep 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    In what way is vinyl superior sounding?
    I just find it more organic, maybe it's just how I was brought up with things and the times too. Being in-between the analogue and digital revolutions has made me more pivotal to nostalgia.

    It's a strange one, all of my CDs lived in the garage and now they're here in my living room... Never play most of them but it feels nice to physically 'put' some music on rather than use an app. The latter seems bereft of meaning in some ways. But handy in less convenient situations. Like junk food ... Lol

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  9. #29
    Join Date: Aug 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeandvan View Post
    The end of side distortion is only present with certain discs, some of my vinyl sounds fantastic, even with these so called budget carts (I wonder what makes a £1000 cart cost more to produce than a £100 cart?). My set up is a straight up 1210GR, so I don't see where along the signal path the set up can be wrong, though I'd be happy to know where if so. I use a Slee phono stage into the Suggie. In the end faffing about with a so called high end TT and a £1000 cart that could easily break (just like I did once in a hayfever induced accident on a £440 AT cart), is a luxury only a few can afford, seems rather pointless when you can bang an album in a high end CD player, which costs the same as a high end cart, yet isn't a 'consumable'. I still love playing vinyl, and have more of it than CD, and I like banging on a record, and not worrying about being too careful with the stylus (I don't mean reckless of course), but you know, can't be bothered with arm cueing and all that.





    The turntable is beyond concern in my opinion which is good, but a £100 MM cartridge and integrated phonostage in a sugden Integrated amplifier is not the pinnacle of analogue reproduction for which to make an absolutist statement about digital weeing on vinyl.

    That is all the point I am making.

  10. #30
    Join Date: Mar 2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubi View Post
    The turntable is beyond concern in my opinion which is good, but a £100 MM cartridge and integrated phonostage in a sugden Integrated amplifier is not the pinnacle of analogue reproduction for which to make an absolutist statement about digital weeing on vinyl.

    That is all the point I am making.
    You missed the Slee atop the cd player.
    Current system 1210 GR. CDP - Meridian G08. Amp -Sugden A21I - Sig. Wharfedale Lintons.

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