New Solid Aluminium Platter for the SL1200

[Marco]

Hi Martin,

Glad yer back, matey. Hope you had a nice time!

Dave has told me that he won't support me running a bake-off so I'm only going to be able to buy a platter as a customer when funds permit.

Now why doesn't that surprise me!

I can't believe that he's expecting people to buy a completely unknown quantity like this which costs a not inconsiderable £650 without listening to it first in their own system.......

Note to Mike New: why did you mention here that this was a possibility?

That isn't likely until the end of the year. At that point, I shall try to review it with as many options as possible, certainly with/without the Copper mat and with at least the Timestep HE and possibly another PSU.

Well I can supply the other PSU (probably two, actually), so when you buy the platter, we can have the bake-off then, dude, (if you're up for it) and it'll have bugger all to do with Dave.

No disrespect to your reviewing abilities, but I must hear the effect of the platter with my own ears and with my own T/T before I'd entertain buying one, and we can do that together and report our findings on the forum for the benefit of other potential customers - that's the fairest and most sensible way to do it. It'd be good to hook up again, too

Marco.

[leo]

I'd have thought it made sense to have say one to use as a sample to send around various folks to evaluate and post feedback Even if it was just sent to customers he knew well it would be worth it imo, they can have the bake off etc , surely he'd trust it to get sent back .

[Marco]

Indeed, Leo, in normal circumstances, yes that makes perfect sense, but where Dave's concerned nothing is ever as simple or as straightforward as that due to his various agendas. He's hardly endearing himself to future customers with his defensive and unhelpful behaviour. It's bloody ridiculous

I could say plenty here, but I'l refrain from losing the plot...!

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Marco ' i think your being very unfair , i don't sense any hidden agenda's , just caution! its still very early days with this new platter.

[Marco]

I'm being unfair? Oh come off it, Chris, it's not me behaving utterly unreasonably. Even Leo thinks it's riduculous, and so do many other people I've spoken to about it but who won't comment here. The agenda is there for all to see if people take off the blinkers: he can't handle competition or constructive criticism! Those are not endearing traits, in my opinion.

Caution? Where's the harm in allowing a product, once you're finished and are happy with it, to be demonstrated to a small group of trusted potential buyers prior to purchase? That's quite a normal thing to do, no? If you're confident in the efficacy of your products, then exposing them to scrutiny in order to make a sale is part and parcel of being in business. At least in my world it is.

If Dave wants to behave like a petulant primadonna and shoot himself in the foot in the process, in terms of selling platters, then that's his prerogative, but I'll certainly not be holding back in my criticism of his decision, as I think it's entirely justified.

Anyway, I really don't think we need any more discussion on that side of the matter, as I can't see it turning into anything remotely constructive. I merely wanted to express my disdain at what he's told Martin, and now I've done that, I think we should leave it there and return to discussing specifics about the platter itself, so please, let's do that

[AudiOH!]

[QUOTE=Citation16;129262]

I did get the new platter from Mike - after some small modifications to a high capacitor on the drive board, so that the platter turned freely, the platter was finally ready to play.

Yves

I believe Mike has modified the platter so that the Cap is no longer a problem on the Mk5 decks. Dave appears to have 10 platters on order.

Les

[Mike_New]

I can confirm that David has ordered ten platters from me last week. I understand that he has orders for five of them!! Plus I am shipping to the US and Canada.

I believe Marco you should carefully read the review of Yves and then form an opinion.

All this rather shrill talk and argument about motor dynamics is just that, its the listening experience that counts in the final yards. and I am no authority on sonics, rather a precision engineer.

If David does not want to loan any platters out for evaluation, then I guess I cannot do much about it. He does have the right to handle his sales territory the way he wants to. That does not mean I always agree with his approach.

The large capacitor that Yves mentioned, and that Marco seemed to think would negate anyone being able to fit the new platter themselves has been corrected. In fact this cap situation was highlighted by a helpful contributor to theses pages some months ago, who sent me an image and measurements of the latest PCB. In fact, in making some other design changes in an attemp to get the centre of gravity as low as possible, I miscalculated the distances. This has now been corrected.

Although as always when one is designing a product to piggyback an established design and production variations, there will always be the need for design reviews.

[Marco]

Hi Mike,

I can confirm that David has ordered ten platters from me last week. I understand that he has orders for five of them!! Plus I am shipping to the US and Canada.

Nice one - and may you sell plenty more, my friend! Everyone has different criteria before deciding to buy something, so good luck to those who've ordered platters. I hope for them that it proves to be an excellent upgrade

I believe Marco you should carefully read the review of Yves and then form an opinion.

I have done, and don't doubt that what Yves says is true, however, I cannot form a definitive opinion on something which I've not heard for myself, and/or where there is (so far) no measurement data with which to allay the concerns I have expressed for this modifcation.

I just like to be thorough, Mike, that's all!

All this rather shrill talk and argument about motor dynamics is just that, its the listening experience that counts in the final yards. and I am no authority on sonics, rather a precision engineer.

Fair enough, and I respect that, but I've already said that this is one modification of the SL-1200 I would not trust my ears solely to judge, and I will stick by that. If others don't wish to do this then that is their prerogative.

If David does not want to loan any platters out for evaluation, then I guess I cannot do much about it. He does have the right to handle his sales territory the way he wants to. That does not mean I always agree with his approach.

Indeed so, however reading between the lines of your last sentence, I'm glad that we share a degree of similar thinking in that respect

The large capacitor that Yves mentioned, and that Marco seemed to think would negate anyone being able to fit the new platter themselves has been corrected. In fact this cap situation was highlighted by a helpful contributor to theses pages some months ago, who sent me an image and measurements of the latest PCB.

Don't worry, that was my fault. I didn't realise that Yves had a KAB PSU.

In fact, in making some other design changes in an attemp to get the centre of gravity as low as possible, I miscalculated the distances. This has now been corrected.

Although as always when one is designing a product to piggyback an established design and production variations, there will always be the need for design reviews.

I applaud your honesty, Mike, and your willingness to be so forthcoming about these things. If only some other people could take a leaf out of your book!

I very much agree with your last paragraph, which is why I would wait until all the 'teething troubles' have been ironed out before I'd consider taking the plunge with one of your platters.

We therefore await future developments with interest.

Mike, be under no illusions that my scrutinising things is done with the best of intentions, and if the sonic effect of the new platter is unquestionably as good as Yves says, AOS will promote its use to all SL-1200/1210 aficionados as a viable and effective upgrade, and in turn I'm sure you will have lots of success with it! Don't underestimate the influence AOS has in that respect

The platter being an unquestionably successful and effective upgrade is what I would like to be the case, just the same as all the other Techie fans here would, too. It's just a pity that on this side of the pond one has to negotiate with such an awkward and intransigent character as Mr Cawley (judging by his behaviour here, not how he is in person).

However, onwards and upwards.... When you have any more interesting news, please be sure to share it with us!

Take care.

Marco.

[Alex Nikitin]

It's just a pity that on this side of the pond one has to negotiate with such an awkward and intransigent character as Mr Cawley (judging by his behaviour here, not how he is in person).

Marco, may I say that these words can be easily addressed to you on this matter. I am only an outside observer here, however I understand Dave's position very well and in this case I am rather on his side. What you're demanding on the measurements side is not sensible. To measure the platter influence on the performance or indeed changes in the dynamics is not a trivial task and involves a lot of work and specialized equipment. Moreover, the release of the information from this kind of measurements may be not in the interest of either Mike or Dave as it may give some ideas to potential competitors. I think it is up to Dave how he handles the measurements and the sales (as Mike said) and your behaviour on this matter does look childish and unreasonable to me as I am following this thread - sorry!

Alex

[Marco]

Hi Alex,

No problem. You're entitled to your opinion, but although I see where you're coming from, I happen to (mostly) disagree.

What you're demanding on the measurements side is not sensible. To measure the platter influence on the performance or indeed changes in the dynamics is not a trivial task and involves a lot of work and specialized equipment.

Fair enough, I don't doubt it, but I was under the impression that measurements were Dave's 'thing', and that he had plenty of the relevant apparatus (and the knowledge to use it) to supply at least a credible analysis of the effects outlined.

Moreover, the release of the information from this kind of measurements may be not in the interest of either Mike or Dave as it may give some ideas to potential competitors.

Fair point, however I still maintain that Dave could offer some kind of feedback as to what he's discovered when measuring the behaviour of the new platter and its effect on the drive system of the SL-1200; he doesn't have to go into such detail that any secrets are given away.

All I was looking for, Alex, from Dave was something along the lines of:

'Hi guys, I've been playing with the new platter today and have discovered X, Y, Z, which clearly shows to me that the new platter doesn't in any way negatively impact on the speed stabilty of the drive system, so worry not! Oh, and it sounds fantastic and makes a significant improvement to the performance of the SL-1200...'

Had he done something that, instead of creating a shroud of silence on the matter, I can assure you that we wouldn't be in this unfortunate position now!

All others and I would like is some form of reassurance of the concerns we've raised here. Instead we get indignant silence and a rather arrogant and dismissive air of 'I don't have to justify my products to anyone' from Dave, which I'm sorry, I find completely unacceptable. Look how helpful and forthcoming people like Stan Beresford and Paul Hynes are with enquires about their products. Why can't Dave be more like them?? It certainly wouldn't do him any harm!

I can also ASSURE you that his attitude in this matter is not reflecting well on him, despite him putting a favourable spin on it. I've had discussions in private with numerous people and they are all telling me that he's doing himself no favours whatsoever. However, if he wants to put his ego ahead of his best business interests, then of course that's entirely his decision!

I do however fully understand that things are still under development with the platter, so I'm not looking for definitive answers at this stage; merely some basic feedback as to what he has learned so far. Surely to God that's not too much to ask???

I think it is up to Dave how he handles the measurements and the sales (as Mike said) and your behaviour on this matter does look childish and unreasonable to me as I am following this thread - sorry!

No need to apologise. Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion. However, for "childish and unreasonable" see Dave's refusal to loan a test platter to Martin for serious potential buyers to evaluate prior to possible purchase - even when, quite clearly, Mike himself and eveyone else thinks this is a sensible idea!!

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Alex. Let's not forget too that you're a personal friend and business partner of Dave's, so I wouldn't expect you to take any other stance on this matter than what you're currently doing, which is fine by me and entirely understandable

Marco.