Calling all SL-1200/1210 owners!

[Peter Stockwell]

Please don't get into a mat spat , what next Stand wars ?

I had a foam mat (NAS ?) over the rubber mat of my 401, I think I should dig it out and try it over the stock rubber mat of the Teccie.

[Marco]

Sweeping and dismissive statement! My ears and system are just fine, thank you As you weren't present during my mat experiments you would not be aware of the results. I've not heard the 1210 so can't comment but I found the original mat on all the three decks I had at the time damped the platter best and in combination with others provided the best sound. So

My apologies, Neal. I mistakenly thought you had carried out your mat experiments on a 1210. It kind of read that way when you wrote:

I've tied many combinations of mats on that deck...

I presumed you were referring to the 1210, but you were of course referring to Mike's SL-120. However both decks use pretty much the same platter do they not? Therefore I would have thought results would be similar...

Anyway, I certainly don't wish to belittle your findings. It's just that I was rather surprised by your assertion that rubber mats of any description are good when this is diametrically opposed to my own experience not just on a 1210 but on every other deck I have owned.

For me, rubber mats, particularly thick ones, always seem to muddy/dull the sound, reduce dynamics, and make for a 'thick', 'plodding' type of presentation. I don't seem to be alone in this view as almost everyone else I know who's bought a 1210 has ditched the rubber mat in favour of something else. The rubber mats are certainly not supplied for any reasons of sound quality - they're just cheaper to make.

Hey, like they say, I guess it would be a boring world if we were all the same!

Marco.

[Gromit]

Just been having a couple of days playing with this...



All I'll say for now is that it's one hell of a turntable - the 1210's got more than just a small fight on its hands. Just a shame the Pioneer's not mine.

[Marco]

Yes, I know, I've read all about it on PFM where you chose to post it first! Traitor

Only kidding... (A bit) haha.

Yep it looks like a very fine deck, Richard. I'm not surprised that it's good and is giving the 1210 a hard time. It wasn't just Technics that produced high quality D/D mechanisms in the 70s and 80s - all the Jap 'big boys' done it. You could find similar (and perhaps even better) examples from Denon, Marantz, Sony, Trio, and many others. The problem was most of them never seen the light of day in the UK and people here are only just now discovering them.

I love the tonearm - it looks like an Acos Lustre or a derivative of such. These were once made for Rega and put on their early decks before manufacturing their own tonearms. The RB250 and 300 were touted at the time as being an 'upgrade' but not in my opinion.

The Acos-sourced arm was a more solid (and nicer) piece of engineering and IMO sounded far better. It was yet another example of marketing triumphing over what actually performed best. Good luck to Rega, though, as a business decision it made perfect sense and the RB250 and 300 have since gone on to sell by their 1000s worldwide and become one of the most popular and most used tonearms in the world. I do think though that they are somewhat overrated even when modified by OL, Moth, etc. The stock Technics arm when suitably fettled in my experience outperforms both by a significant margin.

The only thing about decks like the Pioneer you're using is what do you do in the event of something going wrong with the motor unit? Do Pioneer still service them? Regardless of anything else that's always going to be the advantage with the 1210 as you will always be able to have it repaired if necessary. Also, I suspect that once you have the stock arm rewired on the 1210 and fit the off-board PSU (which I hope you will do as it transforms the deck's performance) your perceptions of both T/Ts will be somewhat different...

Anyway, in the meantime have fun!

Marco.

[Gromit]

I love the tonearm - it looks like an Acos Lustre or a derivative of such. These were once made for Rega and put on their early decks before manufacturing their own tonearms. The RB250 and 300 were touted at the time as being an 'upgrade' but not in my opinion.

The Acos-sourced arm was a more solid (and nicer) piece of engineering and IMO sounded far better. It was yet another example of marketing triumphing over what actually performed best. Good luck to Rega, though, as a business decision it made perfect sense and the RB250 and 300 have since gone on to sell by their 1000s worldwide and become one of the most popular and most used tonearms in the world. I do think though that they are somewhat overrated even when modified by OL, Moth, etc.

Marco.

I'd tend to disagree Marco - in fact back in 1985 I upgraded my then R200-equipped Planar 3 with the RB300 and never looked back. The increase in resolution, bass speed and all round improvement in detail (both in terms of what was coming through and musical nuance) was definitely on a higher level.

Saying that, when I went from my fully-OL-modded RB250 on the Spacedeck to the Spacearm the change was not subtle. Possibly one of the biggest upgrades I've made in a long time.

I'd also love to hear the PL-71 with some upgrades applied - I'm simply using it as standard (with the Zu etc of course). It really does sound incredibly good as it is - better than the 1210? I would say a resounding yes to that...and then some. It's more dynamic, has (even) more bass control, more colour, more rhythmic information (and how it applies to musical phrase pattern), is smoother and better organised at the top end too. It presents a more musically satisfying and 'interesting' picture.

[Marco]

Richard,

Regarding the Acos/Rega thing I guess it's just a matter of taste and/or sonic signature of our partnering systems at the time when we were judging

I've never found Rega arms to be anything particularly special, except perhaps the RB1000, but even with that there are other arms at the price (or less) that I would rather use - the Hadcock being a case in point. I've always found Rega arms to be a bit bland and 'grey' sounding, lacking in tonal colour and expressiveness.

We are after all different in some respects with hi-fi as you like Lyras, whereas I find them too lean and somewhat 'toppy' sounding for my tastes, so perhaps the Acos-sourced Rega arm lent itself better to the DL-103 (a cartridge much more to my tastes than any Lyra) that I was using at the time, particularly as it had a detachable headshell where I could use an AT magnesium one to add mass which the Denon likes. The bigger AT headshell you've got now is exactly what I was using in those days - yes it's that old!

I'm glad you're enjoying the Pioneer and your comments are very interesting. Like I said though, there's a hell of a lot more to come from the 1210 once the arm is fully fettled and you add the external PSU, so don't wet your pants too much yet! I'll be very interested to hear what your thoughts are on both decks when the 1210 is 'done and dusted', but you will probably have to give the Pioneer back to Mr Dunn by then

Hey, just think if the PL-71 is making the 1210 sound 'shit', how 'shit' was the Spacedeck which the 1210 trounced!!!

Marco.

[Gromit]

Richard,

Regarding the Acos/Rega thing I guess it's just a matter of taste and/or sonic signature of our partnering systems at the time when we were judging

I've never found Rega arms to be anything particularly special, except perhaps the RB1000, but even with that there are other arms at the price (or less) that I would rather use - the Hadcock being a case in point. I've always found Rega arms to be a bit bland and 'grey' sounding, lacking in tonal colour and expressiveness.

We are after all different in some respects with hi-fi as you like Lyras, whereas I find them too lean and somewhat 'toppy' sounding for my tastes, so perhaps the Acos-sourced Rega arm lent itself better to the DL-103 (a cartridge much more to my tastes than any Lyra) that I was using at the time, particularly as it had a detachable headshell where I could use an AT magnesium one to add mass which the Denon likes. The bigger AT headshell you've got now is exactly what I was using in those days - yes it's that old!

I'm glad you're enjoying the Pioneer and your comments are very interesting. Like I said though, there's a hell of a lot more to come from the 1210 once the arm is fully fettled and you add the external PSU, so don't wet your pants too much yet! I'll be very interested to hear what your thoughts are on both decks when the 1210 is 'done and dusted', but you will probably have to give the Pioneer back to Mr Dunn by then

Hey, just think if the PL-71 is making the 1210 sound 'shit', how 'shit' was the Spacedeck which the 1210 trounced!!!

Marco.

Marco - I'm very much looking forward to hearing how far the 1210 can go, especially with regard to the arm. I'm not overly worried about getting the psu done for the time being - that can wait for next year possibly (plus I don't want to wreck the thing with my DiY ineptitude!).

I think one should be fair here - the NAS was never really trounced by the 1210. The NAS loses out in the bass most definitely (and it does have the best bass I've heard at home from a belt drive) but gains in terms of clarity and, at the moment, listenability plus it has a much lower noise floor - something which I noticed vs my previous Gyro. Saying that, in terms of sheer drive and sense of fun the Technics is very much ahead. And, I just love using the thing as it's so damn easy.

Oh...the Sumiko arrived this morning. Must get round to having a play with it.

[NRG]

....

For me, rubber mats, particularly thick ones, always seem to muddy/dull the sound, reduce dynamics, and make for a 'thick', 'plodding' type of presentation. I don't seem to be alone in this view as almost everyone else I know who's bought a 1210 has ditched the rubber mat in favour of something else. The rubber mats are certainly not supplied for any reasons of sound quality - they're just cheaper to make.

Hey, like they say, I guess it would be a boring world if we were all the same!

Marco.

Maybe that's correct used on their own but I used them in combination with other types to get the balance I wanted.

I've heard Greg's (over on AT) Garard with just the OEM mat and its none the worse for it, Greg did the same experiments as me and concluded the original was best, he uses it 'as is' AFAIK.

Truth is none of the after market mats damped the platter well on any of the decks I tried, it still rang like a bell when tapped and I could detect a hardening in the mid and an edge to HF on all of them used in isolation but in combination they all improved giving slightly differing presentations....but there was certainly no muddle, that was one of the aspects of the sound I wanted to avoid as was any edge to the HF.

Peoples mileage will vary and its a very subjective choice in the end.

[Peter Stockwell]

I'm not overly worried about getting the psu done for the time being - that can wait for next year possibly (plus I don't want to wreck the thing with my DiY ineptitude!).

Saying that, in terms of sheer drive and sense of fun the Technics is very much ahead. And, I just love using the thing as it's so damn easy.

I thought I'd ordered the PSU & Arm upgrades from KAB, but they haven't got back to me with a shipping quote. I'm going on hols soon, so I'm going to let it slide until "la rentrée" (beginning of the year, french style, i.e. september).

I'm also wondering if I should go for broke and buy a fully KAB'd SL1210 and sell on the one I have, they sell very well here on ebay, or I should just upgrade the one I've got. If I take the later course of action, I'm inclined to start with the PSU and work back to the arm.

I've had to force myself to listen to CDs recently (180° turnaround!), and I'm now up to 4 LPs ordered in the week since buying the Teccie

(No Music this weelend MiL is in town )

Peter

[Mike]

While we're on the subject of mats, my Achromat has arrived.

In terms of 'material value for money' I'm feeling rather underwhelmed to say the least!

I'll reserve final judgement until I've heard what it does of course, but I'm seriously impressed with the feel of the thing at over fifty quid. But not favourably!


Cheers,
Mike.