Digital replay. Have I experienced an epiphany, or just a healthy dose of reality?

[BajaGringo]

Hold on while I go grab some popcorn...

[Mr. C]

Marco,

If you say so, I am merely a seller of 'toppy' French rubbish :-)
Please forgive my observations oh valve guru and sloppy coloured English poor fitting box user

[tfarney]

I'm still not sure I understand what happened here. Were the proponents of the powered monitors with intregal dac suggesting that, to all but the very trained ear, a basic consumer audio quality dac is indistinguishable from audiophile dacs and cdps? That's what Howard seems to be suggesting (did I get that about right, Howard?). I'm not sure how that might be offensive. If you think you hear a clear difference it simply means, by Howard's definition, that you are a very discriminating and well-trained listener. It sounds like flattery to me.

Then again, I wasn't here for the war...

Oooo..."toppy French rubbish" and "sloppy colored English boxes"...Baja, would you grab me a box of that popcorn while you're in the lobby. No butter.

Tim

[Marco]

Hi Marco,

It's not my place to speak for Neil, or anyone else for that matter, but from my own point of view I'm a little uncomfortable.

There is a hint of double standards about all this. One (ex)member of the forum proposed this very scenario and was more or less berated off the forum, and now another apparently more respected member raises the self same subject and the response is very different indeed. At least from some contributors.

Now, I know full well that a lot of the response to the now banned 'JC' was brought about by his own somewhat evangelical stance on these (and other related) matters, but something is not right here.

It is not for me to 'point the bone' and I will not be goaded into doing so, I'm going to keep my head behind the parapet here and just watch.

Hi Mike,

I honestly have no idea what you mean. Please just say what you're thinking: being honest and open about things is always the best policy and certainly what we promote on AOS. If it's something you'd rather keep off of the public domain then PM or email me

Marco.

[Marco]

Marco,

If you say so, I am merely a seller of 'toppy' French rubbish :-)
Please forgive my observations oh valve guru and sloppy coloured English poor fitting box user

LOL. Tony, you're entitled to your opinion, as am I. I think people often make the mistake of coming to a definitive conclusion about equipment or speakers as a result of one particular listening experience. How many times have you heard SP100s? You heard what you heard that day with the Spendors (I still don't know yet if they were SP100s) but it doesn't mean that in *fact* is what they are like.

You could say the same regarding my assertion about Focals, and you'd have a point, but then I've heard many examples of them over the years, in many different systems, from entry level models to the Utopia range, and a few of the new Beryllium tweeter models since, (Geoff Coleman from Acoustica used to use JM Labs almost exclusively when I worked in his shop so I got to know them very well) and whilst obviously sounding different, they all exhibit a similar signature at the top end. It undoubtedly gets better as you go up the range but the signature nevertheless exists.

Like I said, it's the way French speakers are voiced. If it's your thing then cool, but please don't TELL me that my SP100s aren't revealing when that's completely contrary to what I hear with them in my system and what I've enjoyed about them for the last six years

Marco.

[Marco]

Tim,

I'm still not sure I understand what happened here. Were the proponents of the powered monitors with intregal dac suggesting that, to all but the very trained ear, a basic consumer audio quality dac is indistinguishable from audiophile dacs and cdps?

Yes, amongst other things, but mainly that AVI ADM9s represent the pinnacle of all hi-fi and outperform anything else, which is ridiculous considering the size of the speakers for starters. They also had a major agenda against traditional hi-fi, such as CDPs, valve amps and vinyl (although JC was a fan of 78s) such that I believe their views were disingenuous and deliberately designed to mislead people to further their own (in the case of Ashley) commercial interests. This is ultimately why they were banned as I will not allow this forum to be used as a vehicle for people to perpetrate their agendas, however JC was finally (permanently) banned because he was caught red-handed trolling under a pseudonym.

Regarding DACs, I don't think that's what Howard was saying. I think he meant that CDP transports are now superfluous to requirements given the accuracy and excellence of lossless streaming from a computer hard drive, which is what I've heard myself. A top-notch DAC is still needed in that scenario, certainly in my experience, as I've heard my Sony DAS-R1 completely outperform many modern and less expensive DACs such as those from Wolfson, etc, in the context of a computer audio set-up. The difference is obvious - you certainly don't need bat ears to hear it

Marco.

[Mike]

Hi Mike,

I honestly have no idea what you mean. Please just say what you're thinking: being honest and open about things is always the best policy and certainly what we promote on AOS. If it's something you'd rather keep off of the public domain then PM or email me

Marco.

No!

Like I said....

I'm keeping out of it now. If others care to search the forum and make up their own minds, then that is up to them. It is just my own opinion that there is something of an 'imbalance' going on regarding the 'treatment' of certain others. YMMV

I'm just trying to be 'the voice of reason', which is why I was asked to be a moderator in the first place. I think?

Best wishes to all,
Mike.

[tfarney]

Regarding DACs, I don't think that's what Howard was saying. I think he meant that CDP transports are now superfluous to requirements given the accuracy and excellence of lossless streaming, which is what I've heard myself. A top-notch DAC is still needed in that scenario, certainly in my experience, as I've heard my Sony DAS-R1 completely outperform many modern and less expensive DACs such as those from Wolfson, etc. The difference is obvious - you certainly don't need bat ears to hear it

Marco.

I'm not so sure, Marco. Howard can, of course, speak for himself, but I assumed, and specifically asked if he was using a good outboard DAC in that scenario, and I got this reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tfarney View Post
Howard, I'm assuming that when you play music from your Mac that you are running it through an outboard DAC? And given your profession and experience I would further assume that it is at least as good as Filterlab's Duet
Tim
Err, no. Just the bog-standard, on-board, as supplied, Apple DAC! Sorry to disappoint you guys.

Spare a passing though for me thought as the retailer if you'd be so kind. Imagine what I'm going through, as the weeks go by, as the realisation of what’s happening starts to set in. Just as well that I haven't sold a CD player for a few weeks. Not sure my conscience could take it.

Business on the other gear is very good indeed though. Fortunately.

I was surprised by the answer. I personally believe that a decent 16-bit DAC of the kind found in average consumer equipment like the Mac does a fine job, and that most people would not notice a significant upgrade when going to "audiophile" dacs (unless they were hearing coloration in the output stage), but I didn't expect to hear that from a high-end dealer. No offence, meant, Howard.

Tim

[Marco]

Mike,

Well, personally, I think expressing an opinion is pointless unless those reading it understand it and can see where you're coming from

Cryptic assertions, which is how I view your comments, serve no useful purpose whatsoever.

Hey ho...

Marco.

[Marco]

Tim,

If that's what Howard meant then so be it. He's entitled to his opinion. However if that's the case then his view is in direct contradiction to my own experiences in this area, and those of many others I know. I have heard, frankly, massive differences in DACs used in computer audio set-ups, the last of which was at a friend's house where the in-built Wolfson DAC on his media player was completely outperformed by my Sony DAS-R1, which resulted in him buying a Sony for himself

I'm sure there are plenty of other high-end DACs out there that would have done the same thing. I don't want to be accused of over the top championing of the Sony

Marco.