Digital replay. Have I experienced an epiphany, or just a healthy dose of reality?

[Neil McCauley]

Be careful who you talk to about this, Howard. You could completely blow your audiophile credentials.

Tim

Were you slightly tongue in cheek re this Tim, or perhaps serious?

If the latter, then I must confess that I'm not clear as to how me stating the truth (as I hear it) might be commercially detrimental. I'm interested in learning more – if you’d care to expand on the quote. Thanks.

Sincerely, and possibly in this instance, naively …

HP.

[Marco]

Great discussion this, guys (Howard - nice one ).

I'm a bit busy just now but will contribute in detail later. Safe to say though that I pretty much agree with the consensus of opinion so far in that lossless streaming digital replay, done properly (as outlined) with a top-notch DAC, in my experience outperforms *ANY* CD player. When a digital signal is reproduced accordingly I can't see any reason why the numerous mechanical interfaces present in any CD player could possibly improve the sound - in fact they are more likely to get in the way.

However there will always be a place for top-notch CDPs for those with large CD collections who can't be arsed importing them to a computer hard drive. Thing is, though, "top-notch" doesn't necessarily mean 'expensive', or even new...

More later!

Marco.

[Filterlab]

Were you slightly tongue in cheek re this Tim, or perhaps serious?

I think tongue-in-cheek on that one Howard.

A lot of audiophiles will need some convincing of computer's ability to produce audiophile level sound and some may well frown at the thought for a while to come yet, however a demo should suitably prove that it is possible. I think for a lot of 'high-enders' the thought of computer audio is the sticking point rather than the tangible experience.

[Neil McCauley]

You've summed up my thoughts entirely.

I sit on the fence – with a foot in both camps so to speak. I'm an audiophile retailer, and yet I believe I can see things from a consumer's perspective, usually.

As for Stereonow, I won't be demoing my Apple Mac as source. Not worth the hassle and in any event I'm not in the computer business. I use 'em - but I've no idea what makes 'em work. I remain happy in this ignorance. Really!

My own thoughts on this topic, beyond what I've said elsewhere on this forum are entirely irrelevant. That's because I am powerless against market forces.

[Mr. C]

Rob,


Sorry I did not see the AIFF file in your signature
Back to the crux of the question, have you ever tried the high res downloads at all? (bit for bit masters).
The ripped cd even when done with a AIFF, is still only the basic 16 bit 44.1khz format. just curious if you have tried it.
Your sound card/mac may use an ASRC to increase the bits to 24 and up-sample the 44.1khz, however the raw format is redbook, even if lossless.
As for the tos-link does it not have a limited bandwidth 48K?, I agree with a lot of PC based systems it is the lesser of the evils for digital data transmission from a noisy RF/EMI spewing pc, however you have the data conversion from electrical to light, then back again. There are other ways of cracking this nut.
Think though, stream the totally *bit for bit prefect* manufacturers phrasing objectivity sense here please that has a raw format of 24bit/176.4Khz, straight into your dac, no need for signal manipulation, the results are quite something, and this is just the start. Then tie in your dac to a WBC , this raises the bar by a serious level. Or better still construct a dac with this designed in!
The fun has been going on for a while

[Filterlab]

Rob,have you ever tried the high res downloads at all? (bit for bit masters). The ripped cd even when done with a AIFF, is still only the basic 16 bit 44.1khz format. just curious if you have tried it. Your sound card/mac may use an ASRC to increase the bits to 24 and up-sample the 44.1khz, however the raw format is redbook, even if lossless.

Not yet, although it's on my list of things to try as well as HRx. My CD rips consist of a mix of 16bit/44.1Khz and upsampled 24bit/48Khz - my choice for each depends on the individual recording; some sound better in the former, some in the latter (despite the original always being 16/44.1 - upsampled to 176.4Khz anyway). However this means that I do a listening test for each CD I import, although it only takes a few minutes of listening to find the more ideal rate.

As for the tos-link does it not have a limited bandwidth 48K?, I agree with a lot of PC based systems it is the lesser of the evils for digital data transmission from a noisy RF/EMI spewing pc, however you have the data conversion from electrical to light, then back again. There are other ways of cracking this nut. Think though, stream the totally *bit for bit perfect* manufacturers phrasing objectivity sense here please that has a raw format of 24bit/176.4Khz, straight into your dac, no need for signal manipulation, the results are quite something, and this is just the start.

TOSLink does have a maximum sample rate transfer of 48Khz, but my DAC internally upsamples to 192Khz with any 24bit signal. However I'm reverting back to 16bit/44.1Khz this evening as over the weeks I've felt that it sounds a little more natural. In any case the DAC will adapt to pretty much any signal present and will comfortably handle 24bit/176.4Khz (handy for the HRx recordings).

At the mo the Apogee electrical drivers are not available for OSX 10.5 but as soon as they are I will grab them and hook up with Firewire. I'll do plenty of listening tests to determine which is more suitable (as usual) and I'll use whichever fairs better. I'm not fussed which settings / connections etc etc I use and even if the DAC / computer / software is upsampling and reverting the signal all over the place, I'll settle on whichever sounds better.

[Marco]

A lot of audiophiles will need some convincing of computer's ability to produce audiophile level sound and some may well frown at the thought for a while to come yet, however a demo should suitably prove that it is possible. I think for a lot of 'high-enders' the thought of computer audio is the sticking point rather than the tangible experience.

I think you're right, Rob. For some the cachet of owning a Naim CDS 555, DCS, Audio Research, Krell, or whatever, and having it gloriously showcased on top of their rack for their friends and neighbours to see and coo over, is too important to lose and be replaced by some 'plastic computer'. For these types of people 'status symbols' are much more important in hi-fi than music so they will always want a 'box' to show off. I abhor this type of mentality but nevertheless it exists

However, one sticking point for me with computer audio, and it's got nothing to do with sound quality, is the soulless way in which one accesses our favourite music and the way it is treated rather like a disposable commodity. A file will never be as visually enticing or attractive as an album cover - and no, a picture of it on a monitor is not the same thing! I treasure my 'physical' musical collection - all the vinyl albums, CDs; their covers and sleeve notes and the memories that go with them, and this 'human', tactile experience is completely missing with computer audio.

The 'ritual', for example, of easing out a beautifully pressed slab of vinyl from its decorative gatefold sleeve, reading the label, looking at the artwork, placing the record on your turntable, and listening to the stylus tracking the lead-in groove before music commences (and the subsequent very high quality reproduction of it) is something that is very important to me and which no computer audio set-up, no matter how technically excellent, can ever replicate. So for me I will always own a CDP and T/T for that reason. My eventual computer audio set-up will simply be a high quality and (very convenient) third source of music, but the experience of using it will never beat the 'real thing', as described, on a purely human level.

Marco.

[Mr. C]

Rob,

Thanks for the reply, that was point, your DAC has an ASRC inside it, which ever way you look at it is manipulating the base signal by adding (usually 9 bits of dither) and rolling around the sampling freq, to hide the nasties (most modern dac's and cdp's do this, so I am not singling yours out honest!).
However most studio recordings are done at 32 bit and 384khz or 24bit/192khz (Raw formats). If you use these high res formats into your dac you will be grinning for ear to ear.

Marco, I do concur with a lot of your sentiments, pride of ownership etc.
However, I do believe you do like to enlighten us about your 'Quite simply one of the best CDPs ever made...' from time to time :-)

[Mr. C]

Rob,

Try these also http://www.itrax.com/

[Filterlab]

I have to definitely agree with you Marco. There is nothing like the tactility of a music collection, certainly putting a record on has a real sense of occasion, moreso than a CD player. Of course this is lost completely with a computer, in the case of iTunes all I have to do is type the first letter and then scroll to the album/track and it's playing immediately (accompanied by the picture of course).

That's why I still buy CDs and import them - at least I have the collection. Oddly I had a moments madness this week where I thought about importing all my CDs, doing three copies of the data (one live, two back-up) and then selling the whole lot.

Ten minutes later I was over that daft idea!