Does size matter?

[DSJR]

Yes Big ATC's require a lot of power to row them along, but other speakers have a lot more sensitivity and are lot more eaiser to drive

I quite agree, but I still think 30 Watts of ANY quality wouldn't be enough to get Spendor SP100's to very high levels. At low levels, definitely though..

Anyway, judging by current market conditions, AVI sell all their stuff online and ATC don't seem to promote their domestic market overmuch, although their new pre/power appears interesting for £2500 and sounds better than previous efforts too I'm informed.

I've just answered Marco's question too - If Croft amps look too "hair shirt" no matter how good they are (they are ) and Naim bores you rigid before you see the prices they ask, then this new ATC pairing might just do the bizz. Servicing shouldn't be an issue either with a six year warranty..

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

I was going to answer your post elsewhere, but decided to go straight to this one instead:

I quite agree, but I still think 30 Watts of ANY quality wouldn't be enough to get Spendor SP100's to very high levels. At low levels, definitely though..

LOL! If only you had been there during some of the sessions I've had in the past with the Spendors and the Copper amp, you'd not be saying that - I can assure you!!

Remember that it's 30W Pure Class A, which makes a significant difference.

Let me put it this way to you....................

The Copper amp drove the SP100s MUCH louder and with considerably more headroom than the 200W solid-state ECS monoblocks it replaced ever did, which pissed all over the Naim NAP135 monoblocks I had before the ECSs (as did the 30W lightly-modified Yaqin Chinese valve amp drive the SP100s harder and louder, which I had before the Copper amp) - remember that this experience is primarily what made me move from ss amps to valves in the first place, so bang goes your theory about power output!

Quite simply, IME, valve watts are a very different thing from solid-state watts, subjectively, in real world applications in terms of how dynamic range in music is handled. Much of the effect of the higher power output of ss amps is diluted in overly complicated circuits to the detriment of the music signal, which often ends up sounding flat and 'sat-on' in comparison, so although on paper there is more power available, it often doesn't translate that way in terms of how the music signal is reproduced and heard by the human ear.

This is yet another example of measurements/specs only telling half of the story!

I'm sure that our resident SET fans like Ali would agree with me after experiencing on many occasions the deafening sound one can produce with 2 watts and quality high-efficiency (100db+) speakers - indeed I've heard it myself and the results are WAY louder (and superior sounding) to anything I've heard from any ss amp in conjunction with speakers of standard efficiency.

Yes, the Tannoys are more efficient than the SP100s (95db, as opposed to 90db) which is a huge difference, but that doesn't mean that the Copper amp didn't drive the SP100s to quite insane levels, and without any audible clipping. However, what I'm getting now from the Lockwoods is a massive league beyond that... The loudness level the system is capable of now in my relatively small room honestly has to be heard to be believed, and definitely isn't for the fainthearted....

Let's hope that Barry (who's visiting me on Saturday, and which I'm very much looking forward to) can handle it and doesn't get the fright of his life!! I'll put some waterproof sheets on the sofa just in case

Marco.

[DSJR]

Marco, I've heard this myself, but volts is volts and amps is amps and there's NO MAGIC about it. It's just the clipping behaviour of good valve amps is so much better than than many SS amps, including the Naims, which had loads of odd order and crossover distortion long before clipping arose (they're better now though, but at a huge price premium).

I'm sure you can drive your copper amp flat out with no listening fatigue at all - I'm not attacking them for Chrissakes, just trying to point out that it's HOW an amp clips and behaves on transients that is so important. Anthony may be able to supply more meaningful specs, but a specified 30 watts is 30 watts, even if it is "Valve" Watts

[MartinT]

I don't know, I find 350W per channel perfectly adequate

[Marco]

LOL, Martin!

Dave, I know that you're not "attacking" the Copper amp, but whatever way you cut it the statement below of yours is WRONG with a capital 'W', (based on my extensive listening experience of the equipment in question):

I still think 30 Watts of ANY quality wouldn't be enough to get Spendor SP100's to very high levels.

30 Class A valve watts are in my experience (subjectively) considerably louder than 200W of solid-state, through 90db Spendor SP100s, using either my Copper amp or ECS monos as partnering amplifiers. The Copper amp drove the SP100s to insanely loud levels, and without audible clipping, much louder than the ECS monos ever did.

That's the truth of the matter, muchacho!

It's not specs that count in the final analysis, but how equipment actually reproduces recorded music in 'real-world' applications.

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

I really liked the AVI speakers we sold, Neutrons, Pro 9 etc, but we came into it late on and were selling what was left before the switch over. However Ashley did keep the Pro 9 and Neutron going for a bit longer but the larger speakers were discontinued. Crazy thing is after taking on AVI it took 9 months to sell any then it went daft and it became very hard to get anymore. I looked to AVI to replace Ruark when they dropped their Prologue range (stupid Ruark put all their eggs in the Sevenoaks basket and when they dumped Ruark in favour of Monitor Audio ERRRRRRRRRRRRR Ruark nearly went tits up after that...but survived thankfully and then discontinued some of my fave English speakers. All because of bloody What Hi-Fi).

Anyway I agree with Ashley if you see S/H Passive AVI speakers have a punt they are very good imho/e.


Regards D S D L

[Marco]

Agreed. Their 'legacy hi-fi' was always superb in my experience, and offered high SPPV, which is why it puzzles me slightly why they abandoned it completely when clearly there still exists a sizeable market for such equipment, as evidenced by the sales of 100s of other high-end manufacturers currently selling such equipment to enthusiasts all over the world...

I'm sure that their ADM9s are well-designed and do a particular job very well, but they are not the 'giant-killers' purported ad nauseam by Mr James on every Internet site that will host his blinkered agenda.

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

Obviously there wasn't a market for A*I 'legacy' equipment or else they would still be making it. Also, the computer speakers must be very profitable.

Agree about the 'giant killing'. They are competent, nothing more.

[Marco]

Obviously there wasn't a market for A*I 'legacy' equipment or else they would still be making it. Also, the computer speakers must be very profitable.

Dave, I think that your second sentence is nearer the truth than your first one, but only tells part of the story.

AVI as a company (or perhaps Ashley himself?) decided that traditional separates hi-fi had no future and so they were going to abandon their roots and wholeheartedly embrace computer audio to cash in on the general public's insatiable appetite for technology-led gadgetry, which is I guess fair enough.

However, I doubt Ashley would ever admit it, but I suspect that AVI haven't cashed in quite as spectacularly as they had originally envisaged (that's not to say they're not doing well enough though), and also to their chagrin, the traditional separates market has remained rather more buoyant too than probably they had first thought, stubbornly refusing to just lay down and die...

Quite simply, there have never been a better selection of brand new turntables, cartridges and other analogue-related paraphernalia, not to mention valve amps on the market - ever, so I think that old Ashley may have misjudged things slightly. Bloody hell, even reel-to-reel tape decks are making a comeback and being featured at international h-fi shows!! And long may it continue......

Marco.

[tfarney]

I don't know, I find 350W per channel perfectly adequate

I manage to soldier through on just 325.

Tim