SL-1210 upgrade path

[Peter Stockwell]

inneresting, the one I listened to yesterday was a restored 60s McIntosh preamp, an 80s trannie power amp and some Rogers LS5/9s. It didn't sound bad, but it didn't sound right either.

I think it was down to installation, and the room, more than anything else. The TT was on top of a "built in cupboard", in the cupboard was the preamp on top of the poweramp.

It certainly didn't sound as clear as my Naim stuff, like I said it didn't sound bad, it did have some body to instruments and voices but didn't display the, for want of a better word, clarity that I like.

Moving on ..

I think my speakers are blocking my system now, I think they've become the weakest link

yikes.

[chris@panteg]

That's a very interesting comment. It almost presumes that tube gear is automatically lacking in transparency and dynamics, which is an absolute and utter fallacy...

Well, allow me to correct that - poorly designed 'badge' tube gear might be like that (I've often heard this criticism aimed at CJ equipment), but not stuff that's been properly designed from the ground up where the money has been spent where it matters, under the hood, and where the circuit used isn't simply some re-hashed, poorly implemented copy of an ancient 1950s Quad design or whatever...

The reason that I moved from solid-state gear to tubes in the first place is because of their (massively) superior transparency and dynamics, compared even to my 200W £6000 ECS monoblocks, each one sporting a 1500VA transformer! This is certainly what my Croft preamp and 30W Class A KT88 Copper amp deliver in spades

This stereotyping of tube gear as being somehow 'warm and soggy' sounding needs to be dispelled once and for all for the over-hyped nonsense that it is.

Sorry for the 'rant', Pete, but I think that your friend should consider buying some decent tube gear and then he'll get all the transparency and dynamics he can handle - or perhaps that isn't quite his thing?

Marco.

Marco

like you say a well designed valve amp delivers a sound that SS simply cannot match, but unfortunately there are still many valve amps some cheap and some relatively expensive designs that cut corners and use solid state rectifiers' a prime example would be my old 2nd audio 2a3 mono's .

When i bought the Border patrol psu's i did the installation myself and took out the SS rectifiers they looked like large resistors with a built in heatsink.

The BP used a gz37 rectifier and the difference in sound was amazing
the good thing is many modern valve amps now use valve rectified choke input smoothing.

[Marco]

Peter,

I think it was down to installation, and the room, more than anything else. The TT was on top of a "built in cupboard", in the cupboard was the preamp on top of the poweramp.

Jeez, I think the least said about that the better...!

I regret the 401 as an "objet d'art" but I have to think that DD pedigree TTs throuroughly made it obsolete.

Mmm... You know how much I love the Techy but I think you're being a tad premature there. No doubt that's what you've heard though because you're more than familiar now with both decks, however I suspect that your 401 isn't quite up to scratch, or something is not quite right. I say that quite simply, Peter, because the 301s and 401s I've heard and compared with my Techy have all been absolutely fabulous, and in some areas have bettered it. It was definitely not a case of the Techy 'trouncing' any of the Garrards.

In terms of bass weight and extension a properly mounted 301 or 401 trumps any direct-drive T/T I've heard, even an SP10; there is a real punch and visceral quality in that area which is simply quite stunning. However, where the Technics decks score over the Garrards, in my opinion, is in their unerring accuracy in terms of pitch and timing (no doubt a by-product of their superb speed stability). The Garrards aren't exactly lacking here (far from it) but the Technics decks just nail this aspect of the presentation down more convincingly for me.

To my ears, the Technics decks are also more incisive in the way they cut to the heart of the music with an effortless sense of calm and ease, and with it rock solid stability and control, which gives little impression that one is listening to a stylus tracking vinyl grooves: it's a very 'CD-like' presentation, but CD with real 'heart and soul'. Tonally, the Technics decks are 'cooler' and a little more clincial sounding, however I would put that down to them being somewhat less coloured than the Garrards, which have more euphonic warmth and thus can be more of a 'romantic' listen, particularly when the likes of an Ortofon SPU is used. However if someone were to remove my Techy one night and leave a nice 301 in a suitable plinth in its place I could live with it very easily

Do you think your Bastin plinth might be a bit of a leveller? All the good Garrards I've heard have been in Slatedeck plinths. Oh, and on that note, I've got no doubt that the quality of slate varies enormously, especially in terms of the inherent resonant qualities of each type which is fundamental to its efficacy as a suitable turntable plinth. I also think that having double layers of slate is better than just a single layer, and I prefer highly polished slate to the dull unfinished stuff, which for me can look rather drab. I'm undecided yet as to which type of plinth to have made for my Techy, but it'll either be a double layer Slatedeck job or the solid and inert real wood type that Dave Cawley uses.

Marco.

[Pete]

That's a very interesting comment. It almost presumes that tube gear is automatically lacking in transparency and dynamics, which is an absolute and utter fallacy...

Sorry for the 'rant', Pete, but I think that your friend should consider buying some decent tube gear and then he'll get all the transparency and dynamics he can handle - or perhaps that isn't quite his thing?

Marco.

Marco,

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

Maybe his components are chosen to give the sound he likes, including the tube equipment, ICs and speakers.

Since its expensive tube stuff, I just assumed tubes was the cause of the sound signature he gets. But it may be that other variables are at play.

I didn't say he had terrible dynamics, or extension, just that I've heard more.

[Marco]

Hi Pete,

No feathers ruffled here, mate

I just wanted to reinforce the fact that not all tube gear sounds as you described your friend's stuff. It's important I feel to stress this as the stereotypical image of tube gear you were portraying is widespread and it could people off who don't know any better

Marco.

[Peter Stockwell]

I think you're being a tad premature there. No doubt that's what you've heard though because you're more than familiar now with both decks, however I suspect that your 401 isn't quite up to scratch, or something is not quite right. I say that quite simply, Peter, because the 301s and 401s I've heard and compared with my Techy have all been absolutely fabulous, and in some areas have bettered it. It was definitely not a case of the Techy 'trouncing' any of the Garrards.

No, I think my (his) 401 is up to scratch, it sounded awesome at my gaff the weekend prior, better than I'd heard it for some time. For some ears it would have been preferable to the Teccie, especially if you favour "drive" over "subtlety". I just think it imposes it's signature more than the Kab'd technics does.

In terms of bass weight and extension a properly mounted 301 or 401 trumps any direct-drive T/T I've heard, even an SP10; there is a real punch and visceral quality in that area which is simply quite stunning.

I'd agree with that, but, now, I think that there's more to music than hell for leather.

To my ears, the Technics decks are also more incisive in the way they cut to the heart of the music with an effortless sense of calm and ease, and with it rock solid stability and control, which gives little impression that one is listening to a stylus tracking vinyl grooves: it's a very 'CD-like' presentation, but CD with real 'heart and soul'. Tonally, the Technics decks are 'cooler' and a little more clincial sounding,

Not sure about that, I think cartridge/mat/feet choices are going to come into play here. I think that between the CDS/XPS and the current state of affaires with my Kab'd 1210 that it comes down to the mastering as to which sounds best. The installation being optimised around the CDX/XPS mostly, I haven't invested as much in the Teccie compared with the CDX/XPS, if I include the HiLine then I've put 5000€ into the CD and 1000€ into the teccie, I think that the next evolutions, arm, artridge and finally phonostage will make a big difference. With the Shure V15 type IV and the Jico stylus it's detailed and probably lacking in treble extension, but I still don't find the CDX/XPS in anyway bright or agressive (some will say I'm deaf!)

Do you think your Bastin plinth might be a bit of a leveller? All the good Garrards I've heard have been in Slatedeck plinths. Oh, and on that note, I've got no doubt that the quality of slate varies enormously, especially in terms of the inherent resonant qualities of each type which is fundamental to its efficacy as a suitable turntable plinth. I also think that having double layers of slate is better than just a single layer, and I prefer highly polished slate to the dull unfinished stuff, which for me can look rather drab. I'm undecided yet as to which type of plinth to have made for my Techy, but it'll either be a double layer Slatedeck job or the solid and inert real wood type that Dave Cawley uses.

I've never heard a slatedeck garrard, I think my motor unit was about as good as you can get, I should have tried it without the bastin psu.

You have plans to replinth your SL1210 ?

[jonners]

Does anyone know anything about the Vantage Audio products? They appear to have a platter upgrade and a bearing mod for the SL1200/1210, as well as a power supply: http://www.vantageaudio.com/info/sp10acc.htm

Some pics here: http://www.vantageaudio.com/info/KL57.htm
They show the disassembly of the bearing but does this illustrate the mod I wonder?

[Dave Cawley]

Flooby dust



Dave

[jonners]

Flooby dust



Dave

Ah! http://www.floobydust.com/

[Pete]

Just made my new 2.5 ft long SME DIN tonearm cable

Parts from Takefiveaudio.com :
Cardas DIN plug
Eichmann Copper bullets (already had these) added metal sleeves
Neotech UPOCC 28g Silver wire
1/8" silver plated braided copper shield Belden 8660
1/4" Nylon multifilament techflex

A clear improvement over the stock SME VDH hybrid cable. Cleaner and more focused treble and more lower level detail, more defined and refined sound. For $160, a nice improvement.