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Thread: Smaller speakers solution?

  1. #31
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,273
    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherwood View Post
    I have some experience with the challenge of putting together a good quality hifi system in properties where noise overspill is a consideration. My first serious Hi-Fi (1977) was a vinyl based system based around a Dual turntable, a Rogers A75II amplifier and a pair of Rogers Ls3/5a speakers. The choice of system was largely influenced by the fact that I was at university and living in the middle floor of a large Victorian terraced house in Hackney, The lounge was a great size with high ceilings and a large bay window but the sound insulation was minimal to the extent that I could hear conversations from the flat above and television from the flat below, not to mention neighbours on either side. The Rogers speakers, when wall mounted on long-arm speaker brackets were far enough from the rear wall to retain their imaging qualities yet largely decoupled from the house. The limited bass output meant that I could listen at reasonable levels and still enjoy the vitality of a musical piece. I find this to be a problem with many speakers, namely, that when played at low levels they lose what might be called a sense of energy or vitality. It is true that some large speakers such as the dual concentric Tannoys can sound good at low/evening level volumes but most speakers lack this facility.


    The Rogers speakers survived through many upgrades and house moves. For many years I continued to live in small flats or accommodation where I was limited in how loud I was able to play music. My last accommodation before leaving the UK was a new purpose built one bedroom flat in Leeds near to Headingley. Here I had neighbours both to the side and below. The Rogers remained a fixed feature during this time although the rest of the system evolved. On the turntable side I transitioned from a Rega Planar 3 To a Linn Sondek LP12. On the amplifier side I moved first to a Rogers Cadet 3 valve amplifier and then to an Art Audio Quintet valve power amp with a Croft super micro preamp. A major transition occurred when I left the UK in the mid 90’s to work overseas and my hifi and all of my vinyl went into long term storage. Only my cd collection came with me.


    Once overseas, the space and noise limitations were lifted. An unexpected benefit of working on international health in developing countries is that one tends to have a reasonable housing allowance or to be assigned decent housing. Freed of the limitations of party walls I acquired a series of floor standing speakers with much more extended bass output and far superior dynamics to the Rogers. I tended to sell up my system at the end of each contract and start again when I moved to my next project/country. When ill health forced my relocation back to the UK I bought a new detached property on the edge of Sherwood Forest and started my hifi journey again with a blank canvas.


    As much as I love my LS3/5a speakers (I still have them) I have come to realise their dynamic limitations and their masking of fine detail and transients. Curiously, I was not so troubled by their lack of bass extension. Wanting to retain the natural sound of their midrange, my first purchase was a pair of Magneplanar 1.7 speakers. I mention the Maggies because I think that they may offer the type of sound you are looking for. Although the 1.7 model may be too large for your new accommodation, the newer models such as the LRS+ have a small footprint. They do require a powerful amplifier to drive them properly but your Sugden should be an ideal match. In my judgement the bass is more than adequate but more to the point it is fast and highly textured. Most importantly, they sound fantastic When listening at low levels at night. There are an increasing number of UK dealers where you can audition them and if you choose to do so I would encourage you to bring your Sugden along.


    Alternatively, you might consider the Martin Logans that I mentioned earlier. If you are looking for a speaker to coexist with, rather than replace your Lintons, then these are ideal and could be placed atop the former for evening use. I bought mine on a road trip in the USA and carried them back as hand luggage. I bought them for a bedroom system both for music listening and for watching movies. I cannot recommend them highly enough. Without regard to their size, they are fast, detailed, dynamic and have a real sense of energy. They reproduce human voice better than most speakers irrespective of price. If I were moving back into a small flat with neighbours close by they would be top of my list. I see that there are now a few stockists in the UK so it's possible to get a demo.


    I suppose the bottom line from this is that speakers like the LS3/5A which were long considered the ideal small monitor speaker for domestic use Have been eclipsed by newer technology at a far more affordable price. Mine cost £150 back in 1977. I see current production models sell for £2500 pounds. If you have the space, have a look at the smaller Maggies, if not consider the Martian Logans. Both will offer a satisfying sound at low volumes without bass boom or overspill. A rather lengthy post, but hopefully helpful.
    Very good advice Geoff. If I had more room and my wife was accommodating I would consider Maggies myself, or if I have the dosh a pair of these http://www.analysisaudio.com/Omega.php (Planar speakers), I heard a pair at a dealers not long ago and they were truly outstanding and produced bass, or possibly the smaller Epsilon
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

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  2. #32
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Brighton, UK.

    Posts: 3,100
    I'm Mike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherwood View Post
    I have some experience with the challenge of putting together a good quality hifi system in properties where noise overspill is a consideration. My first serious Hi-Fi (1977) was a vinyl based system based around a Dual turntable, a Rogers A75II amplifier and a pair of Rogers Ls3/5a speakers. The choice of system was largely influenced by the fact that I was at university and living in the middle floor of a large Victorian terraced house in Hackney, The lounge was a great size with high ceilings and a large bay window but the sound insulation was minimal to the extent that I could hear conversations from the flat above and television from the flat below, not to mention neighbours on either side. The Rogers speakers, when wall mounted on long-arm speaker brackets were far enough from the rear wall to retain their imaging qualities yet largely decoupled from the house. The limited bass output meant that I could listen at reasonable levels and still enjoy the vitality of a musical piece. I find this to be a problem with many speakers, namely, that when played at low levels they lose what might be called a sense of energy or vitality. It is true that some large speakers such as the dual concentric Tannoys can sound good at low/evening level volumes but most speakers lack this facility.


    The Rogers speakers survived through many upgrades and house moves. For many years I continued to live in small flats or accommodation where I was limited in how loud I was able to play music. My last accommodation before leaving the UK was a new purpose built one bedroom flat in Leeds near to Headingley. Here I had neighbours both to the side and below. The Rogers remained a fixed feature during this time although the rest of the system evolved. On the turntable side I transitioned from a Rega Planar 3 To a Linn Sondek LP12. On the amplifier side I moved first to a Rogers Cadet 3 valve amplifier and then to an Art Audio Quintet valve power amp with a Croft super micro preamp. A major transition occurred when I left the UK in the mid 90’s to work overseas and my hifi and all of my vinyl went into long term storage. Only my cd collection came with me.


    Once overseas, the space and noise limitations were lifted. An unexpected benefit of working on international health in developing countries is that one tends to have a reasonable housing allowance or to be assigned decent housing. Freed of the limitations of party walls I acquired a series of floor standing speakers with much more extended bass output and far superior dynamics to the Rogers. I tended to sell up my system at the end of each contract and start again when I moved to my next project/country. When ill health forced my relocation back to the UK I bought a new detached property on the edge of Sherwood Forest and started my hifi journey again with a blank canvas.


    As much as I love my LS3/5a speakers (I still have them) I have come to realise their dynamic limitations and their masking of fine detail and transients. Curiously, I was not so troubled by their lack of bass extension. Wanting to retain the natural sound of their midrange, my first purchase was a pair of Magneplanar 1.7 speakers. I mention the Maggies because I think that they may offer the type of sound you are looking for. Although the 1.7 model may be too large for your new accommodation, the newer models such as the LRS+ have a small footprint. They do require a powerful amplifier to drive them properly but your Sugden should be an ideal match. In my judgement the bass is more than adequate but more to the point it is fast and highly textured. Most importantly, they sound fantastic When listening at low levels at night. There are an increasing number of UK dealers where you can audition them and if you choose to do so I would encourage you to bring your Sugden along.


    Alternatively, you might consider the Martin Logans that I mentioned earlier. If you are looking for a speaker to coexist with, rather than replace your Lintons, then these are ideal and could be placed atop the former for evening use. I bought mine on a road trip in the USA and carried them back as hand luggage. I bought them for a bedroom system both for music listening and for watching movies. I cannot recommend them highly enough. Without regard to their size, they are fast, detailed, dynamic and have a real sense of energy. They reproduce human voice better than most speakers irrespective of price. If I were moving back into a small flat with neighbours close by they would be top of my list. I see that there are now a few stockists in the UK so it's possible to get a demo.


    I suppose the bottom line from this is that speakers like the LS3/5A which were long considered the ideal small monitor speaker for domestic use Have been eclipsed by newer technology at a far more affordable price. Mine cost £150 back in 1977. I see current production models sell for £2500 pounds. If you have the space, have a look at the smaller Maggies, if not consider the Martian Logans. Both will offer a satisfying sound at low volumes without bass boom or overspill. A rather lengthy post, but hopefully helpful.
    Thanks Geoff, seems like good advice.
    Current system 1210 GR. CDP - Meridian G08. Amp -Sugden A21I - Sig. Wharfedale Lintons.

  3. #33
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Brighton, UK.

    Posts: 3,100
    I'm Mike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony View Post
    Ah sorry Mike, I thought you'd already found your ideal speaker in the Lintons.

    If you're thinking about speakers you can better control bass-wise, Q Acoustics do a lot of speaker models at all price points, and are generally well-regarded. You could then stuff the bass ports during 'quiet times', and then tune the bass to your tastes with a quality sub (which could be attenuated or switched off during these quiet times).

    Shame you don't live nearer (a lot nearer), I have a couple of different subs you could have played about with ahead of buying anything.Maybe a friendly dealer could home-loan something to experiment with.

    Then again you might find when at your new gaff that the Lintons' bass is not as annoying. Or maybe more annoying... so my suggestion about doing nowt till after you move still stands
    Cheers Steve, I'll wait till I move, will be about a month time, will likely be a basement flat with party walls and of course upstairs neighbours, so I think small speakers will be the way to go.
    Current system 1210 GR. CDP - Meridian G08. Amp -Sugden A21I - Sig. Wharfedale Lintons.

  4. #34
    Join Date: Nov 2020

    Location: Leics

    Posts: 213
    I'm David.

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    One of the best things I ever did hifi-wise was have The Chat with my neighbours when they moved in, particularly as my volume control seems somehow linked to my bottle opener/corkscrew.
    They have my mobile number in case things get a bit out of hand my end, and let me know when they're out for the evening / off on hols.
    We've not had a single cross word. They're grateful for my consideration and I don't sit worrying in the back of my mind if I'm giving it some welly (which is actually worse than getting a bang on the wall I'd say, the audio equivalent of Chinese Water Torture).
    If you're happy with the speakers you've got it seems a shame to swap them out where a diplomatic solution's available.
    Best wishes for a smooth move.
    Mark Levinson 390S CD / Audiolab 6000 CD / Croft 25RS Special Preamp / Croft 7R mono Amps / Neat Ultimatum XLS Speakers

  5. #35
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Brighton, UK.

    Posts: 3,100
    I'm Mike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stranraer View Post
    One of the best things I ever did hifi-wise was have The Chat with my neighbours when they moved in, particularly as my volume control seems somehow linked to my bottle opener/corkscrew.
    They have my mobile number in case things get a bit out of hand my end, and let me know when they're out for the evening / off on hols.
    We've not had a single cross word. They're grateful for my consideration and I don't sit worrying in the back of my mind if I'm giving it some welly (which is actually worse than getting a bang on the wall I'd say, the audio equivalent of Chinese Water Torture).
    If you're happy with the speakers you've got it seems a shame to swap them out where a diplomatic solution's available.
    Best wishes for a smooth move.
    Thanks, I thought of that too, the mobile phone thing, trouble is would you hear it above the music!
    Current system 1210 GR. CDP - Meridian G08. Amp -Sugden A21I - Sig. Wharfedale Lintons.

  6. #36
    Join Date: Jun 2015

    Location: London/Durham

    Posts: 6,883
    I'm Lawrence.

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    If you can't and it's next to you then you are listening too loud anyway.

    Sent from my PCT-L29 using Tapatalk

  7. #37
    Join Date: Nov 2020

    Location: Leics

    Posts: 213
    I'm David.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeandvan View Post
    Thanks, I thought of that too, the mobile phone thing, trouble is would you hear it above the music!
    I keep it nearby and check every few songs.
    The other thing is to offer them over for a listen if they have any particular favourite songs.
    They're never gonna be hifi buffs but a listen to Elvis' Suspicious Minds at their request put a smile of acknowledgement on two sceptical faces.
    Mark Levinson 390S CD / Audiolab 6000 CD / Croft 25RS Special Preamp / Croft 7R mono Amps / Neat Ultimatum XLS Speakers

  8. #38
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: Notts

    Posts: 2,747
    I'm Geoff.

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    I agree with several of the other posts that one should not move to a new property thinking that noise overspill will inevitably result in confrontation with neighbours. However, I think a lot depends upon the type of noise overspill as to how much it is perceived as disturbing. Even though my current property is a modern detached house I have had some problems with unwanted noise since I moved in. I live in a former mining village on the edge of what is left of Sherwood Forest. I am located on a quiet road opposite a large open field that abuts a low rise care home set back some distance from the road.

    Most of the time there are no problems but once a year the open field is home for a week to a traditional travelling funfair. Judging by the design and decorative state of the various amusements, first impressions are that it has been running since the 1950s though it may be somewhat younger. To be fair, the event seems reasonably well managed and is typically closed by 10 pm at night. The music played to accompany the rides is very loud but I am more irritated by the music selection and its unrelenting repetitiveness. What really does get to me though is the ultra low bass which is not audible but which shakes the foundation of the house and can be felt in the pit of one's stomach. There is no escape from the constant pounding even in the back of the house. Headphones can mask the sound of the music but not the subsonic onslaught.

    Last year the funfair did not operate. My speculation is that low attendances may have rendered it financially unviable although it is possible that the ageing equipment finally gave up the ghost. Perhaps, rather uncharitably, I am hoping that a DNR order has been issued.


  9. #39
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,941
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherwood View Post
    Most of the time there are no problems but once a year the open field is home for a week to a traditional travelling funfair. Judging by the design and decorative state of the various amusements, first impressions are that it has been running since the 1950s though it may be somewhat younger.

    The Tooth Chipper:

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    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  10. #40
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: Gloucestershire

    Posts: 989
    I'm Ian.

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    Hi Mike,
    There's a guy on Lenco Heaven selling a pair of speakers with Jordan Eikona full range drivers. I've used these drivers for many years in a variety of cabinets and they are never harsh. My brother has a Sugden A21 SE and the two made a wonderful combination.

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