Jimbos Audio ramblings

[karma1967]

nice one jimbo,i keep meaning to knock some up myself so i will be interested in your findings mate.

[Jimbo]

Panels look fab mate. They look as if they belong there. WAF off the scale then

[Jimbo]

nice one jimbo,i keep meaning to knock some up myself so i will be interested in your findings mate.

Just having a good listen tonight with the finished panels and have noticed considerable difference to well known material on my system. Once I get my head round everything going on I will pop some comments down.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Jim, I had a couple of pictures up in my listening room sitting slightly higher and just opposite my speakers. I've now removed these and I'm enjoying more coherence to the soundstage and I would even say it appears wider and deeper. I initially thought I was hearing things but it appears to have had a positive result. I've downloaded REW on will be hopefully getting a microphone, what have you started!!!

[Jimbo]

Jim, I had a couple of pictures up in my listening room sitting slightly higher and just opposite my speakers. I've now removed these and I'm enjoying more coherence to the soundstage and I would even say it appears wider and deeper. I initially thought I was hearing things but it appears to have had a positive result. I've downloaded REW on will be hopefully getting a microphone, what have you started!!!

Brilliant Andy, to be honest I have been quite amazed at the difference treating the room with even just a bit of acoustic material. I will be adding more in future if I can hear a benefit. At the moment it is all producing great results and it all makes logical sense. The most profound differences are the soundstage,imaging and uplift in clarity.

If you can do it cheaply and don't go mad I think it a no brainer to improve the sound you are getting from your system. I have had bigger benefits from the acoustic treatment than all the sound isolation improvements I have done on my turntable and system.

[Jimbo]

After a long session last night a few more observations for anyone who's interested.

1. Soundstage improvement. I have mentioned previously that I noticed a difference to the soundstage and that it was a tad bigger but actually it a little deeper with information in the recording now thrown even further back. Small but significant.

2. Clarity. This has been an intriguing one. Most folk, including myself when they here an improvement in clarity often say " I have heard things in the recording that I have never heard before" A bit like ultra resolution DACs and amps. All resolution and no soul. I never let myself get fooled by this as its a bit like turning up the treble years ago or similar to the VIVID setting on your TV.
What I observed was more subtle than that. I will try and articulate what I mean my talking specifically about vocals.

You know when you are listening to a piece of music and you can hear the vocals but can't quite catch what the actual words are and then you change something in your system and you can hear suddenly clearly what is being sung, how they are singing it and the intonation etc. This is the improvement in clarity I observed in the system. Along with greater tonal quality, naturalness and simple believability.

3. Tonal quality. I was not expecting any difference here but the panels have also attenuated the midrange driver somewhat as it is at the top of the speakers and so directly in firing line with the acoustic panels. `I noticed midrange and lower midrange information now had more tonal quality, a bit more layering of harmonics and weight in the notes especially piano.

4. Imaging. This was significantly improved. As I mentioned on early listening I noticed distinct "untangling" of information in the recording. Where a singer double tracked themselves and sounded muddy I could now hear two distinct vocals in the mix.

I must mention that I am only at the beginning of my room treatment project and have much greater plans but I don't want and in fact would not be allowed to get away with just throwing large slabs of rock wool in all the corners and putting corrugated dispersion panels everywhere as this is a living room and not a "Man Cave". If I did have such a room I would move a bit quicker but because of the WAF factor I have to tread carefully. However some of my later plans have been given the green light. So I intend to improve the rear wall behind my listening position and there will be quite a number of more panels on the walls. I am not expecting huge gains from lots of further acoustic treatment but we will see?

As I have mentioned I have a large amount of damping in the room with 3 sofas and I have actually tried some rough Bass traps with no discernible improvement what so ever. My speakers currently don't have large bass drivers anyway and I would say are a bit bass shy so I don't think I need more in this area. The walls are still a bit echoey further down to the listening position and there is still a fair amount of reverberation in the room but the speaker area once the heavy curtains are drawn now sounds way more controlled.

The project will continue as I am now more than convinced room treatment is an essential factor in obtaining the best from your system `But it does change the sound. If you have put together a system to work in your room and fine tuned it to your liking, throwing in lots of room treatment does produce quite a significant difference which you may or may not like. Speakers that were once bright can suddenly sound rolled off. You can loose bass and like I say go too far and kill the sound you enjoy so best tread slowly and carefully.

All of the improvements I have had are however positive and have greatly enhanced my listening experience to the point I am rediscovering records in a new light and hearing shades of information that were previously hidden by the room reflections.

One last thing. I have recently seen an article that measured room reflection timings from different parts of the listening environment and they found that at each timing difference certain aspects of the music were detrimentally affected so the conclusion was to limit these reflections and the multiple timings reaching your ear and you will hear a much improved sound from your system and all that implies. In other words try and get you top end information in particular to stop bouncing round the room too much and aim to receive more directly from the tweeter. This all makes logical sense to me and it will be in my thoughts as I proceed forward with the room.

[AJSki2fly]

After a long session last night a few more observations for anyone who's interested.

1. Soundstage improvement. I have mentioned previously that I noticed a difference to the soundstage and that it was a tad bigger but actually it a little deeper with information in the recording now thrown even further back. Small but significant.

2. Clarity. This has been an intriguing one. Most folk, including myself when they here an improvement in clarity often say " I have heard things in the recording that I have never heard before" A bit like ultra resolution DACs and amps. All resolution and no soul. I never let myself get fooled by this as its a bit like turning up the treble years ago or similar to the VIVID setting on your TV.
What I observed was more subtle than that. I will try and articulate what I mean my talking specifically about vocals.

You know when you are listening to a piece of music and you can hear the vocals but can't quite catch what the actual words are and then you change something in your system and you can hear suddenly clearly what is being sung, how they are singing it and the intonation etc. This is the improvement in clarity I observed in the system. Along with greater tonal quality, naturalness and simple believability.

3. Tonal quality. I was not expecting any difference here but the panels have also attenuated the midrange driver somewhat as it is at the top of the speakers and so directly in firing line with the acoustic panels. `I noticed midrange and lower midrange information now had more tonal quality, a bit more layering of harmonics and weight in the notes especially piano.

4. Imaging. This was significantly improved. As I mentioned on early listening I noticed distinct "untangling" of information in the recording. Where a singer double tracked themselves and sounded muddy I could now hear two distinct vocals in the mix.

I must mention that I am only at the beginning of my room treatment project and have much greater plans but I don't want and in fact would not be allowed to get away with just throwing large slabs of rock wool in all the corners and putting corrugated dispersion panels everywhere as this is a living room and not a "Man Cave". If I did have such a room I would move a bit quicker but because of the WAF factor I have to tread carefully. However some of my later plans have been given the green light. So I intend to improve the rear wall behind my listening position and there will be quite a number of more panels on the walls. I am not expecting huge gains from lots of further acoustic treatment but we will see?

As I have mentioned I have a large amount of damping in the room with 3 sofas and I have actually tried some rough Bass traps with no discernible improvement what so ever. My speakers currently don't have large bass drivers anyway and I would say are a bit bass shy so I don't think I need more in this area. The walls are still a bit echoey further down to the listening position and there is still a fair amount of reverberation in the room but the speaker area once the heavy curtains are drawn now sounds way more controlled.

The project will continue as I am now more than convinced room treatment is an essential factor in obtaining the best from your system `But it does change the sound. If you have put together a system to work in your room and fine tuned it to your liking, throwing in lots of room treatment does produce quite a significant difference which you may or may not like. Speakers that were once bright can suddenly sound rolled off. You can loose bass and like I say go too far and kill the sound you enjoy so best tread slowly and carefully.

All of the improvements I have had are however positive and have greatly enhanced my listening experience to the point I am rediscovering records in a new light and hearing shades of information that were previously hidden by the room reflections.

One last thing. I have recently seen an article that measured room reflection timings from different parts of the listening environment and they found that at each timing difference certain aspects of the music were detrimentally affected so the conclusion was to limit these reflections and the multiple timings reaching your ear and you will hear a much improved sound from your system and all that implies. In other words try and get you top end information in particular to stop bouncing round the room too much and aim to receive more directly from the tweeter. This all makes logical sense to me and it will be in my thoughts as I proceed forward with the room.

Well explained James, sounds like you are getting good improvements. I think the key is to use room treatment up to the point where you are happy with what you are hearing, or you can go down the acoustics rabbit hole of flatness and blandness, if you get my meaning.

One thing I noticed when investigating is that Bass traps can be quiet tricky to deploy and get good results, a lot either don't go low enough or the have too large a frequency range which can dull everything down. I was recommended 2 panel Bass Traps with range limiter on the wall behind me, and one on the wall I was facing. But SWMBO balked at 0.6m by 1.2m panels 5.25' deep on the wall.

[Jimbo]

Well explained James, sounds like you are getting good improvements. I think the key is to use room treatment up to the point where you are happy with what you are hearing, or you can go down the acoustics rabbit hole of flatness and blandness, if you get my meaning.

One thing I noticed when investigating is that Bass traps can be quiet tricky to deploy and get good results, a lot either don't go low enough or the have too large a frequency range which can dull everything down. I was recommended 2 panel Bass Traps with range limiter on the wall behind me, and one on the wall I was facing. But SWMBO balked at 0.6m by 1.2m panels 5.25' deep on the wall.

I agree Adrian, Bass is a tricky one to sort if you want to get the right balance. From most of the articles I have read the average size listening room does not suffer too much with Bass as it is often filled with furniture and people! The problem always occurs with speakers that are two big in a small room, then your fighting for control.

[brian2957]

After a long session last night a few more observations for anyone who's interested.

1. Soundstage improvement. I have mentioned previously that I noticed a difference to the soundstage and that it was a tad bigger but actually it a little deeper with information in the recording now thrown even further back. Small but significant.

2. Clarity. This has been an intriguing one. Most folk, including myself when they here an improvement in clarity often say " I have heard things in the recording that I have never heard before" A bit like ultra resolution DACs and amps. All resolution and no soul. I never let myself get fooled by this as its a bit like turning up the treble years ago or similar to the VIVID setting on your TV.
What I observed was more subtle than that. I will try and articulate what I mean my talking specifically about vocals.

You know when you are listening to a piece of music and you can hear the vocals but can't quite catch what the actual words are and then you change something in your system and you can hear suddenly clearly what is being sung, how they are singing it and the intonation etc. This is the improvement in clarity I observed in the system. Along with greater tonal quality, naturalness and simple believability.

3. Tonal quality. I was not expecting any difference here but the panels have also attenuated the midrange driver somewhat as it is at the top of the speakers and so directly in firing line with the acoustic panels. `I noticed midrange and lower midrange information now had more tonal quality, a bit more layering of harmonics and weight in the notes especially piano.

4. Imaging. This was significantly improved. As I mentioned on early listening I noticed distinct "untangling" of information in the recording. Where a singer double tracked themselves and sounded muddy I could now hear two distinct vocals in the mix.

I must mention that I am only at the beginning of my room treatment project and have much greater plans but I don't want and in fact would not be allowed to get away with just throwing large slabs of rock wool in all the corners and putting corrugated dispersion panels everywhere as this is a living room and not a "Man Cave". If I did have such a room I would move a bit quicker but because of the WAF factor I have to tread carefully. However some of my later plans have been given the green light. So I intend to improve the rear wall behind my listening position and there will be quite a number of more panels on the walls. I am not expecting huge gains from lots of further acoustic treatment but we will see?

As I have mentioned I have a large amount of damping in the room with 3 sofas and I have actually tried some rough Bass traps with no discernible improvement what so ever. My speakers currently don't have large bass drivers anyway and I would say are a bit bass shy so I don't think I need more in this area. The walls are still a bit echoey further down to the listening position and there is still a fair amount of reverberation in the room but the speaker area once the heavy curtains are drawn now sounds way more controlled.

The project will continue as I am now more than convinced room treatment is an essential factor in obtaining the best from your system `But it does change the sound. If you have put together a system to work in your room and fine tuned it to your liking, throwing in lots of room treatment does produce quite a significant difference which you may or may not like. Speakers that were once bright can suddenly sound rolled off. You can loose bass and like I say go too far and kill the sound you enjoy so best tread slowly and carefully.

All of the improvements I have had are however positive and have greatly enhanced my listening experience to the point I am rediscovering records in a new light and hearing shades of information that were previously hidden by the room reflections.

One last thing. I have recently seen an article that measured room reflection timings from different parts of the listening environment and they found that at each timing difference certain aspects of the music were detrimentally affected so the conclusion was to limit these reflections and the multiple timings reaching your ear and you will hear a much improved sound from your system and all that implies. In other words try and get you top end information in particular to stop bouncing round the room too much and aim to receive more directly from the tweeter. This all makes logical sense to me and it will be in my thoughts as I proceed forward with the room.

Great post again James. I really like the way you take time to explain the process and the benefits. This thread is rapidly turning into an excellent reference point for anyone who is planning to explore the area of room treatment. I will be using it myself in the coming months when I go down this road, albeit on a smaller scale

[Firebottle]

Clarity.
What I observed was more subtle than that. I will try and articulate what I mean my talking specifically about vocals.

You know when you are listening to a piece of music and you can hear the vocals but can't quite catch what the actual words are and then you change something in your system and you can hear suddenly clearly what is being sung, how they are singing it and the intonation etc. This is the improvement in clarity I observed in the system. Along with greater tonal quality, naturalness and simple believability.

That is brilliant and well described.
I have had gains like this specifically from two kit upgrades, firstly with the new speakers - Arke built Troel Gravesen Ekta Mk2, stunning performance.

Secondly when I finally removed the digital mush by installing a SOtM DDC into the USB output from the music server. I'm guessing the galvanic isolation may have been the reason for this improvement.