Can a nearfield listening position ever be too realistic?

[sailor]

Hi Chris, basic rule of thumb: the smaller the room the more it needs absorption. You have the side walls close to your ears and consequently early reflections creating smear, congestion and obscuring detail. Looking at the photo you provided I notice a radiator on the left which will cause problems. I also see some room treatment but the damage from the strong early reflections is your biggest concern.

As an experiment temporarily try some absorption like a couple of mattresses or duvet or similar at the first reflection points on both side walls. Use lots initially to get an idea, which if you like can then be reduced in stages till you find your room having less effect on the music. If you remove the room's huge influence then you get to hear the studio or music venue .. the target.

I have posted before on measuring the room so I won't repeat all that but it's the way to go and removes any guesswork. The science works.

[bumpy]

Thanks Sailor
Looks like another phase of room treatment is required. How do diffusers fit in the package. That radiator is a source of annoyance and I may move it👍

[sailor]

You need to be a minimum distance from a diffuser whose area of operation is above the Schroeder Frequency in the 'reverberant field' Below SF is the modal region which is the domain of the dreaded bass trap. I don't know the length of your room but if you have about 3m behind your listening position you possibly could use some on the rear wall, it depends on the type of diffuser and its lowest frequency being diffused.

My previous post mentioned small rooms need absorption.
Medium sized rooms need both absorption and diffusion.
Large rooms need mostly diffusion.
And all the above need bass traps.

I think in your case diffusion will not bring much to the party so suggest absorption which will. I am in the same position as you or worse! I have a stinkin' radiator either side exactly at the first reflection points. And it was me who placed them there during renovations, then we had a rethink about our layout. Now normally I would have simply moved them but I had torn down the old dilapidated staircase which proudly stood right in the middle of the listening room and rebuilt a new one against the rear wall. Concrete was poured into the pipe channels and then the whole room carpeted. I think if we had not decided to sell the property I would have moved them.

I have well tamed the acoustics in my 7X5m room with T60 right where it should be but the first point reflections (radiators) when temporarily covered with some left over rockwool just snaps things into better focus.

If you are serious about improving things, and from your posts and list of components I would guess you are, consider getting a pack of Owens Corning 703 or equivalent. I found rockwool here which was fine. Comes in a pack of 8 or 9 sheets 2'x4' and 2" thick, more than enough for 2 absorbers. If you can DIY, make them yourself, it's easy.

[Macca]

Good advice - I would suggest that if you are into having as wide as possible stereo image trying diffusion rather than absorption for the first reflection points.

[sailor]

Hey Martin, thanks. I don't know if you looked at the photo of Chris' room. It's rather narrow, too narrow for the diffusers to work as intended. Check out a forum like gearslutz which has a large section on acoustics where T60 charts, DIY treatments and all the explanations on how to construct diffusers to perform within a certain bandwidth and the proximity to them that is possible.

He needs absorption

[Macca]

I agree absorption might be better but on that one, even the experts disagree. A diffuser will still diffuse regardless of room size, whether the effect is beneficial or not is going to be subjective.

You can still get a small room down to an acceptable reverberation time without damping every little bit of it as I'm sure you'll agree?

Personally I am using absorption at first reflection but my room is a bit larger from the look of it and also I have not yet built a diffuser to try out although it is on the cards when I can scavenge some suitable wood from a skip.

[sailor]

I agree absorption might be better but on that one, even the experts disagree.

No, on this point the experts do agree. Perhaps you are reading the 'wrong' experts. Try Beranek (heavy going), Geddes, Welti and Todd. Also in addition to the forum 'Gearslutz' there are many useful and informative videos which will present all this in a much easier to understand format.

A diffuser will still diffuse regardless of room size, whether the effect is beneficial or not is going to be subjective.

Martin, you are missing the point. Of course the diffuser will diffuse, never said it wouldn't. The point is that the diffuser will not be able to contribute in a positive way if they are positioned too close to the listener. When correctly deployed diffusers will enhance not ruin the sound. Fact, nothing subjective about it.

You can still get a small room down to an acceptable reverberation time without damping every little bit of it as I'm sure you'll agree?

Again, you are missing the point! The correct T60 may have been achieved but what about the strong early reflections I mentioned? Have you considered that? This is the whole point. If the reflections reach the ears before just a few milliseconds they will create a messy congested sound as I explained, whereas if the diffusers are at the minimum recommended distance or further there is a sense of openness and space adding to the authenticity of performance. It's great to get T60 sorted but understand that you need to have the absorbers in the right place.

On a diffuser, say a PRD (primitive root) as opposed to (quadratic) where square section wooden blocks are used in random fashion, the length of the longest block, usually about 200mm sets the lower limit of function and the section of timber, anywhere from 20mm to 50mm sets the upper limit of function. Mine, still to be assembled, are using 42 x 45mm cross section and longest at 220mm. Where it's impossible to achieve the required distance the timber can be kept shorter, therefore increasing/raising the lowest frequency. In the case of the narrow room under dicussion the diffuser after being constructed will have a much reduced bandwidth so what is the point.

Your entire post makes the subject appear daunting and it isn't.

Where are you getting your information from? You admit to not having tried diffusers so by extension you have no experience in this field which is fine but if the OP takes your advice and installs diffusion right next to his ears he will have mud.

Hey Chris, my suggestion is grab a set of closed-back headphones, even cheap ones and listen to your system. They effectively remove the room for a sanity check. I also listen to Dee Dee Bridgewater ..Live at Yoshi's, track 2. There is a very well recorded tambourine which being played close to a mic. lets you hear it with snappy dynamics and appears to be right in the room with you. A great album and well recorded, recommended. I heard this girl in Co. Cork at the international jazz festival 2019 or perhaps it was the year before. What an entertainer, she's a real hoot.

[Macca]

Your entire post makes the subject appear daunting and it isn't.
.

It is an extremely complex subject, sorry but if you think it is all done and dusted then you are wrong. Even the people you quote do not agree on everything.

of course each one will say he has all the answers, that's just how it is. My suggestion was to experiment, since each use case is different and user expectations and desires vary a lot. For example I am not interested in having some super-wide 'beyond the speakers stereo image', I'm also aware that to get that requires trade-offs in other areas. Someone else may have different priorities.

There are a huge number of variables involved, for example what is the off-axis dispersion of the speakers? Is it wide or narrow? That alone will make a difference. There's no one size fits all here.

I am glad that for once we are discussing a subject here that actually makes a real difference to sound quality though

[bumpy]

Have a good set of closed back headphones, so will give that a try 👍 I will try a track that seems a bit too up front on my system to see if it’s on the track or not. If it’s not then that’s a target, which is good. Being a scientist I love this type of challenge.

[Macca]

just bear in mind that headphones have their own set of colourations.

If you assume that the problem is not the recording then you'll be right ninety-nine times out of a hundred.