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Thread: When digital streaming sounds good, why do we pour money into the vinyl money pit?

  1. #21
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    I posted this a while back on another thread but it's relevant here also:

    Common issues with the playback system:

    Poorly engineered loudspeakers that unduly emphasise areas of the frequency response resulting in a sound that is too bright or harsh.

    Poor matching of amplifier to loudspeaker load (same result as above)

    Incorrect gain staging resulting in overload.

    Highly reflective listening environment (lack of furniture, carpets, curtains) resulting in excessive treble energy and 'bounce' (most likely cause of so called 'digital glare.')

    Use of 'boutique' digital playback equipment (NOS or filterless DACs etc) where results will be unpredictable and dependant on the nature of the programme.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  2. #22
    Join Date: Feb 2010

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    I'm Dave.

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    I was staggered on a recent visit to an HMV store. Most of the racks are now devoted to LPs and they are are also selling turntables. I'm guessing a [perhaps hopefully temporary] triumph of hope over experience. I get the feeling that vinyl discs and turntables are fashion items - and marketing drives the sales. Vinyl and turntable even feature in TV series - such as Bosch - product placement. I thought at first that some episodes of Bosch were set in previous times - but no - they are clearly pretty much up to date!
    Dave

  3. #23
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

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    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJSki2fly View Post
    From my experience if comparing vinyl with CD(digital) then generally the aural experience can be quite different, even when listening to recordings on each medium taken from the same master recording, obviously the equipment used in both cases can and will have an impact to. I believe though the difference between the two is primarily due to the transcription process of each being distinctly different and each has its own unique compression/decompression methods.

    Vinyl has to mechanically manage low frequencies(bass) and the impact it has in trying to get a small needle to follow if not compressed would be an impractically large groove, the upper frequencies are not so affected but getting accurate high end frequencies recorded and reproduced with vinyl is also a challenge.

    Digital recording works completely differently and faces no such issues, but what does impact it is accurate timing and loss of data when trying to recreate an analogue signal, we are all familiar with the terms frequency rate, over-sampling, error correction and clocking which are aspects/methods of trying to eradicate issues with digital.

    I have a reasonably large collection of vinyl(1600+), collected over the last 8 years, 90% purchased at charity shops, used records shops or friends collections given to me. I also have around 600 CDs and quite a large number of digital files (mp3, CD equivalent and Flac).

    I returned to vinyl for several reasons, mainly because I realised that I like the way it sounds, since the early 80s I found CDs sound reproduction frustrating, it fluctuated from superb to awful depending on how, who or what had produced it, having said that you also get good and appalling records. The other reason I started re-collecting vinyl was it gave me an interest and hobby whilst I came to terms with my heart problems and it got me out and took my mind of it.

    So where am I now, I suppose my preferred listening experience is vinyl, although this is using what most would consider a not inexpensive turntable, cartridge and phono-stage amp, not top end but does a very good job, I know some who have spent double or more with not much gain in SQ in IMHO. I also listen to CDs with an Audiolab 8300cdq(very capable CDP) and to be honest it is very good and at times more revealing(accurate) than vinyl. I also listen to digital streaming, with Rpi/HiFiBerry spdif(Volumio) to DAC and with a microRendu, I have tried TIDAL, Spotify, QObuz, used ROON and Audirvāna. I find it very difficult to say one is much better than the other reproducing the same digital files. However if you compare the cost between the vinyl replay setup and the digital replay, be it CDP or streaming, then the difference in cost is huge, in the order of 10 to 20 times that for vinyl to that of digital to get a similar level of SQ.

    So in all honesty the bottom line for me is that for value for money and SQ digital wins hands down, especially if you have never heard vinyl reproduction at a good level. However I love the way vinyl sounds especially with a good record, I have never quite put my finger on why but I think it is the dynamic feeling it can portray, somehow this can be lost with digital, just a thought, it’s not necessarily better just different.
    Great post!
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  4. #24
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

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    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dave2010 View Post
    I was staggered on a recent visit to an HMV store. Most of the racks are now devoted to LPs and they are are also selling turntables. I'm guessing a [perhaps hopefully temporary] triumph of hope over experience. I get the feeling that vinyl discs and turntables are fashion items - and marketing drives the sales. Vinyl and turntable even feature in TV series - such as Bosch - product placement. I thought at first that some episodes of Bosch were set in previous times - but no - they are clearly pretty much up to date!
    Just read a report on Munich Hifi show and chap mentioned there were so many turntables there they actually outnumbered speakers. Way more than in previous years.
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  5. #25
    Join Date: Jun 2014

    Location: Chorley Lancs

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    I'm Steve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Just read a report on Munich Hifi show and chap mentioned there were so many turntables there they actually outnumbered speakers. Way more than in previous years.
    I suspect a lot of high-end turntables will be bought on looks rather than sound (although I don't doubt they are all competent) by people with money to burn. Because they've seen stuff in films and TV which looked cool. Then they'll spend a few hundred on a handful of well recorded LPs to impress visitors with.
    I just dropped in, to see what condition my condition was in

    T/T: Inspire Monarch, X200 tonearm, Ortofon Quintet Blue. Phono: Project Tube Box CD: Marantz CD6006 (UK Edition); Amp: Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated.
    Speakers: Zu Omen Def, REL T9i subwoofer. Cables: Atlas Equator interconnects, Atlas Hyper 3.0 speaker cables

    T'other system:
    Echo Dot, Amptastic Mini One,Arcam A75 integrated, Celestion 5's, BK XLS-200 DF

    A/V:
    LG 55" OLED, Panasonic Blu Ray, Sony a/v amp, MA Radius speakers, REL Storm sub

    Forget the past, it's gone. And don't worry about the future, it doesn't exist. There is only NOW.

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  6. #26
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

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    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Great post!
    Thanks James
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

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    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  7. #27
    Join Date: Jan 2013

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    I'm James.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony View Post
    I suspect a lot of high-end turntables will be bought on looks rather than sound (although I don't doubt they are all competent) by people with money to burn. Because they've seen stuff in films and TV which looked cool. Then they'll spend a few hundred on a handful of well recorded LPs to impress visitors with.
    That maybe the case but it also goes for much of the equipment shown at Munich?
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

  8. #28
    Join Date: Feb 2013

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    I'm Grant.

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    no doubt many people buy on looks as much as performance, especially at high end level. not many going to pay 100k for a dogs dinner look.
    Regards,
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  9. #29
    Join Date: Jun 2014

    Location: Chorley Lancs

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    I'm Steve.

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    Good looking needn't cost the earth

    I just dropped in, to see what condition my condition was in

    T/T: Inspire Monarch, X200 tonearm, Ortofon Quintet Blue. Phono: Project Tube Box CD: Marantz CD6006 (UK Edition); Amp: Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated.
    Speakers: Zu Omen Def, REL T9i subwoofer. Cables: Atlas Equator interconnects, Atlas Hyper 3.0 speaker cables

    T'other system:
    Echo Dot, Amptastic Mini One,Arcam A75 integrated, Celestion 5's, BK XLS-200 DF

    A/V:
    LG 55" OLED, Panasonic Blu Ray, Sony a/v amp, MA Radius speakers, REL Storm sub

    Forget the past, it's gone. And don't worry about the future, it doesn't exist. There is only NOW.

    KICKSTARTER: ENABLING SCAMMERS SINCE 2009

  10. #30
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Birmingham

    Posts: 6,772
    I'm James.

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    They look smashin!
    Main system : VPI Scout 1.1 / JMW 9T / 2M Black / Croft 25R+ / Croft 7 / Heco Celan GT 702

    Second System : Goldring Lenco GL75 / AT95EX / Pioneer SX590 / Spendor SP2

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