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Thread: Comparing amplifiers

  1. #21
    Join Date: Aug 2008

    Location: notts uk

    Posts: 296
    I'm Pete.

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    concur with all comments .....would also suggest the topping pre might be aiding and abetting the poor [bright ] sound. See if you can try a MFA tvc or similar to assess how much your pre is emasculating the audio signal.

  2. #22
    Join Date: Apr 2018

    Location: South East Cornwall

    Posts: 322
    I'm Dominic.

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    I am currently running an XTZ Edge A2-300 power amp and it is far from bright or clinical sounding. Yes indeed the bass is very well controlled with not an ounce of fat or bloat, but that is what I enjoy the most from it.

    Like many others have said, I too would say the room layout is mostly to blame and it is surprising just how much furniture and carpets can dampen a 'lively' room down. Some strategically placed large pot plants can also work wonders too.
    CD player = Marantz CD6006
    DAC/pre = Rotel RC 1572
    Power amp = ADA PF201
    Speaks = Quadral Chromium Style 6

  3. #23
    Join Date: Nov 2011

    Location: Seaton, Devon, UK

    Posts: 13,241
    I'm Adrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansiiro View Post
    I agree with the ideas. It was not of coincidence that I used the expression "thousand mosquitos singing",
    so the high frequencies might very well need some trimming to get more pleasant sound.


    Adrian - I moved the couch away from the wall and I was about 2 meters from the speakers,
    but to my ears it felt too intense. I even tried the sound-panel behind my head, but I felt like
    I would prefer everything to feel more relaxed and open. More of that festival-vibe, if I can say that.

    Edit: I had the preamp around -10 db
    Hello Veiko,

    Depending on what your amp/speakers are putting out -10dB could be pretty high in volume, most people listen with music peaking around 75-80dB. If you are having to push over that them something is wrong.

    Also bearing mind that if you have got used to hearing something in a particular way for some time then your brain will be to a certain extent pre-conditioned to expect it to be that way, so when you change things and hear your system differently it may take several days before your brain forgets about the previous sound experience. It may be that what you are now hearing is not wrong but different and not what you are used to.

    I had a listen to the videos and not knowing the accuracy of your mobile phones mic it does sound odd, if it is an iPhone or Samsung they have pretty good mics. Several things that are obvious to me is that the speakers look to be too far apart from each other, you will get better resolution and soundstage if you bring them in to around 2m to 2.5m, also you are sitting far to far back from them. Bear with me and move them in and at the same time toe them in so that the drivers are pointing at your head, you may find that having their line of axis crossing over just in front of you improves it a bit more, some speakers are better like this. When you do this put you sitting position about 2.5m to 3m from the face of the speakers. Also note that the recommended position for the speakers by the manufacturers is 500mm from the wall.

    Also do try out the set up https://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html, it does work, I know it sounds odd walking back and forward clapping your hands and listening for when it sounds right but it does work, your ears are remarkably good at hearing when something is best, it will enable you to find the best position for the speakers, minimising unnecessary reflections and interactions. I would try several speaker positions, where you have them now, by the window, and in front of the wooden wall, but do the WASP for each.

    Not sure if you have the earlier 603s or the S2's but something to note with the earlier B&W 603s reviews say much along these lines "Treble can overwhelm with some music", "Not the most relaxed sound", reviews of the S2's are all pretty good and several say a definite improvement over the earlier ones.

    So your issues apart form the room and speaker position, may also be a reflection of the speakers, if earlier ones, and possibly being exaggerated in your room. HiFi News reported for S2's - "Distortion is very low through mid and treble (typ. <0.1% re. 90dB SPL) courtesy of the upgraded passives and CC midrange and DDD treble units, but the loading will not be a walk in the park for all amplifiers. Specifically, there's a broad sub-4ohm trench from 87Hz-700Hz and a tough minimum of 2.85ohm/124Hz coupled with relatively large swings in impedance phase from –72°/66Hz (9.1ohm) to +51°/1.26kHz (7.5ohm)." see https://www.hifinews.com/content/bw-...ker-lab-report

    There is a technical review of your amps https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...plifier.19419/ that implies that when driven hard they may have issues, so your speakers may be demanding too much of the amps, or to put it another way the combination may just not be that great, however Paul Rigby liked the amps a lot and he can be quite picky see https://theaudiophileman.com/edge-a2...er-review-xtz/, but he was probably reviewing using his Spendor speakers.

    I have struggled with speakers several times myself, as others will tell you on here. It is very easy to blame one piece of kit or another, I did to my cost several times. Once the issue was room placement not the speakers. However on the most recent occasion I had an amp that was not up to driving a pair of speakers especially at the lower end when things become more demanding for the amp, switched amps and presto the improvement was dramatic, and I now have a system that works.

    I hope this helps a bit.
    Listening is the act of aural discrimination and dissemination of sound, and accepting you get it wrong sometimes.

    Analog Inputs: Pro-Ject Signature 10 TT & arm, Benz Micro LP-S, Michel Cusis MC, Goldring 2500 and Ortofon Rondo Blue cartridges, Hitachi FT5500 mk2 Tuner

    Digital:- Marantz SA-KI Pearl CD player, RaspberryPi/HifiBerry Digi+ Pro, Buffalo NAS Drive

    Amplification:- AudioValve Sunilda phono stage, Krell KSP-7B pre-amp, Krell KSA-80 power amp

    Output: Wilson Benesch Vector speakers, KLH Ultimate One Headphones

    Cables: Tellurium Q Ultra Black II RCA & Chord Epic 2 RCA, various speaker leads, & links


    I think I am nearing audio nirvana, but don’t tell anyone.

  4. #24
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Are the power amps plugged directly into the wall or into some sort of mains block? They should be plugged straight into the wall sockets.

    The video sounds okay through my laptop speakers, except there's no bass, but then there's no bass on my laptop speakers either.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  5. #25
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: The Black Country

    Posts: 6,089
    I'm Alan.

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    Daft question, just trying to cover all bases.

    Are the jumpers fitted across the rear terminals and are the terminals clean and tight?

    I listened to the vids, they do sound rather bright.
    I love Hendrix for so many reasons. He was so much more than just a blues guitarist - he played damn well any kind of guitar he wanted. In fact I'm not sure if he even played the guitar - he played music. - Stevie Ray Vaughan

  6. #26
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

    Posts: 1,861
    I'm Dennis.

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    I am still of the view expressed earlier, this more so these days because I have been considering changing speakers.

    Many high end ones are now available in progressively larger sizes, and they are often reviewed such that they are described as a particular size being best for any given room.

    I was looking at the Vivid Giya S range, and reviewers refer often to a larger and more extended speaker being too large for a not so large room.

    In other words the bass output needs to match the room, and can be either too little for a larger room, or too much for a smaller one.

    When I moved to my current house I had ATC SCM 50As, but it quickly became obvious that they were lost in my large lounge. I then exchanged them for 100s and it was much better.

    If you are sure of your room, then speakers to suit, can be done.

  7. #27
    Join Date: Sep 2018

    Location: Estonia

    Posts: 94
    I'm Veiko.

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    I read carefully all of your inputs.
    And I did some more listening.

    One thing is clear and has been so for long, the combination "my livingroom - b&w603 - XTZ - ToppingPre90"
    produce somewhat irritating and weightless (too high, thin) sound, when listening rock on a louder levels.
    So much so that I have not liked to listen that kind of music there.

    I have received many tips for the room treatment and speaker placement, and as much as possible,
    I have tried these over the months. I believe the jumpers between the binding posts are set correctly,
    amp(s) is plugged to DynaVox X4100 power-filter BUT to a non-filtered socket (!). Furthermore, I have
    dedicated power-circles in my house for my set-ups, both in living-room and in bedroom.

    So after trying another amp in my living room (Onkyo) I had somewhat different result,
    the sound seemed more full-bodied (or maybe more balanced..?). I had the pre on -10 db, because believe it or not,
    that amp only pushes 30W to 8 ohms. So I had to push it, the average volume was around 75 db.

    So now what was left to do, was to take the XTZ amp to bedroom, to see what happens there. I also took
    the Topping pre and Denafrips Ares II DAC along. Bedroom is as smaller room where I listened to that Onkyo
    previously, with Elac Debut B6.2 booskshelfs, and I believe is acoustically superior room.

    Yes, the "bedroom-elac-XTZ" sounded good. Although I feel that Onkyo still has more warmth and body there,
    I felt like with the amount of "body" I received there with XTZ I could almost live with.

    So the way I see it, a lot of is to blame - the room, the speakers (they are not S2, they are the regular 603), the amp,
    and perhaps even preamp for little. There is not that much I can do about that room, and I don't think I will change much
    with the pre-amp, so I will see weather I can get EQ for a reasonable price, a subwoofer perhaps. In the longer timeframe I
    am looking for different monoblocks. I hear Schiit has got some nice ones.

    By the way, Pete, I don't know what is "MFA tvc". Google did not help me either
    Last edited by Sansiiro; 24-01-2022 at 15:59.

  8. #28
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    MFA is Music First Audio, who make transformer volume controls (TVC pre-amps). They are well regarded.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  9. #29
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    plug the power amplifiers directly into the wall socket, not into the power strip.

    This may or may not improve things but it's worth trying as it will save you a few quid if it does.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  10. #30
    Join Date: Jun 2014

    Location: Chorley Lancs

    Posts: 14,595
    I'm Steve.

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    How about trying some transmission lines in place of your current speakers? Larger models like a good size room I'm told (which you have), and won't be lacking in the bass.
    I just dropped in, to see what condition my condition was in

    T/T: Inspire Monarch, X200 tonearm, Ortofon Quintet Blue. Phono: Project Tube Box CD: Marantz CD6006 (UK Edition); Amp: Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated.
    Speakers: Zu Omen Def, REL T9i subwoofer. Cables: Atlas Equator interconnects, Atlas Hyper 3.0 speaker cables

    T'other system:
    Echo Dot, Amptastic Mini One,Arcam A75 integrated, Celestion 5's, BK XLS-200 DF

    A/V:
    LG 55" OLED, Panasonic Blu Ray, Sony a/v amp, MA Radius speakers, REL Storm sub

    Forget the past, it's gone. And don't worry about the future, it doesn't exist. There is only NOW.

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