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Thread: Synergy, Psychoacoustics, Expectation Bias, Other?

  1. #1
    Join Date: Oct 2013

    Location: Wrexham

    Posts: 1,058
    I'm Darren.

    Default Synergy, Psychoacoustics, Expectation Bias, Other?

    I’ll attempt to cut to the chase, but some background is required…

    After a 3 year hiatus I’ve turned my attention back to the Celestions. I moved into this house about 2 years ago and I’ve not been happy with the way the Celestions sound here compared to my old room. I decided I needed to try something new, but after a very disappointing experience with the latest Kef Q Series speakers I decided the Celestions were my best option and so in the past month or so I’ve been working on getting the best out of them. During this time I have:
    Applied basic room treatments.
    Experimented with speaker horizontal and vertical placement (including Sub).
    Experimented with Bi/Tri Wiring.
    Experimented with Bi/Tri Amping.
    Experimented with different Capacitor types and manufacturers.
    Addressed cable management.
    Tried different RCA cables.

    The result of this is a sound I am (within the confines of this room) really quite happy with, which leads to the subject of this thread!

    The Celestions are used for my Home Cinema system, which as can be seen in my sig uses a well reviewed but certainly not audiophile grade Receiver as a Pre/DAC/Streamer with my source being Spotify. I’ve never expected great musical results from this combination, however in the last couple of days it’s really started to surprise me. The dynamics/soundstage/3D (I don’t really know which one of these terms, if any, represents what I’m trying to describe?) of the sound this combination has started to produce over the last couple of days has me perplexed.

    The sound is now far more 3-dimensional, sound moves and wraps around the room, it can be behind me, above me and whilst I wouldn’t go so far as to say it extends beyond the boundaries of the room it certainly extends beyond the speakers and there is a far greater sense of space and movement.
    I am not surprised that tweaking and fine tuning the system has yielded improvements, what does surprise me is that I’ve only heard my system create this sort of sound when playing records. Now I’m really getting to what I’m trying to say!

    My analogue system (as detailed under “Listening Room” in my sig) using the Celestions has always been capable of creating the sound I am now hearing with my Home Cinema, but only when the TT was the source, nothing digital (previously an Oppo 105 fed FLAC by a RPi) has ever had the same dynamics.

    So my question is how? If it’s taken all of this tweaking to get the Celestions to sound like this with a digital source how come I’ve had a dynamic/3D/immersive sound from the TT?

    Was there some magical synergy in my analogue gear?

    Does it fall into the realm of psychoacoustics? Did my analogue system create a tone/timbre that hit my aural G spot and through the combination of the tweaks I’ve stumbled across a similar sound and I am just able to process the vibrations better.

    Is it just good ole fashioned expectation bias? Has my sound not really improved that much, I’m just paying more attention and hearing what I want to?

    (All listening has been done in Pure Direct with no room correction or EQ applied)
    Darren.
    Listening Room.
    UNDER CONSTRUCTION
    Turn Table. Garrard 401, Reso Mat, 2 Tier Slate Plinth, DIY Hadcock GH242, Nick G modded Lentek, Denon DL-103.
    Pre Amp. Croft Super Micro2. Power Amps Quad 405 Mono Blocks.
    Speakers. TBC

    Home Cinema.
    UNDER CONSTRUCTION
    DAC/Pre Amp. Denon AVC X3700H.
    BDP/Streamer. Panasonic DP-UB820EB / Apple TV4K.
    Display. Optoma UHD51 / DIY False Black Window Screen.
    Power Amps. 2 x Nakamichi AVP1.
    Front Speakers. DIY Baby Celestion Ditton 66. Surround Speakers. Celestion Ditton 11. Subwoofer. BK Electronics P12 300SB PR.

    Old Gallery. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...-of-the-70%92s

  2. #2
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrenHW View Post
    Did my analogue system create a tone/timbre that hit my aural G spot and through the combination of the tweaks I’ve stumbled across a similar sound and I am just able to process the vibrations better.
    Is it just me, or does that sound as kinky as hell?

    Anyway... Good thread, although you're not seriously expecting your digital gear to sound the same as your T/T? Ain't gonna happen dude, especially with a 401, which has a typically 'analogue' sound (in a good way), which no digital gear (streaming or CD) will be able to replicate. You can get a Techy to sound rather like a good digital source, but not a good digital source sounding like a 401...

    However, I think the key lies in this statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by DarrenHW
    My analogue system (as detailed under “Listening Room” in my sig) using the Celestions has always been capable of creating the sound I am now hearing with my Home Cinema, but only when the TT was the source, nothing digital (previously an Oppo 105 fed FLAC by a RPi) has ever had the same dynamics.
    Aside from what I've just written, I think it's mainly (but not wholly) down to the synergy between your 401 (and its constituent parts), and the Croft/Quad combo. Particularly the Croft, as not only does it have an excellent built-in phono stage, but as a preamp it's better than what the Denon's doing in your other system.

    Therefore, what's happening there, synergy-wise, isn't being achieved to the same degree, through the Denon/Nakamichi combo, on 2-channel duties with your digital front end(s), partly due to the more complicated path (accumulate components) that the music signal has to negotiate.

    In short, therefore, IMO, only by improving the amps (pre and power, but most likely the pre will be more sonically influential) in your home-cinema system, for digital 2-channel duties, *or* incorporating your streaming set-up into your listening room, will you get closer to the sound that you're after from streaming, or indeed any other digital souce.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


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  3. #3
    Join Date: Oct 2013

    Location: Wrexham

    Posts: 1,058
    I'm Darren.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Is it just me, or does that sound as kinky as hell?
    It was supposed to, this is AoS after all! I did consider "flicked my aural bean" but thought it may have been lost on some...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Aside from what I've just written, I think it's mainly (but not wholly) down to the synergy between your 401 (and its constituent parts), and the Croft/Quad combo. Particularly the Croft, as not only does it have an excellent built-in phono stage, but as a preamp it's better than what the Denon's doing in your other system.
    This to me is the most logical answer and raises the question as to how would things sound if I plugged the Garrard et al into the Celestions now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Therefore, what's happening there, synergy-wise, isn't being achieved to the same degree, through the Denon/Nakamichi combo, on 2-channel duties with your digital front end(s), partly due to the more complicated path (accumulate components) that the music signal has to negotiate.

    In short, therefore, IMO, only by improving the amps (pre and power, but most likely the pre will be more sonically influential) in your home-cinema system, for digital 2-channel duties, *or* incorporating your streaming set-up into your listening room, will you get closer to the sound that you're after from streaming, or indeed any other digital souce.

    Marco.
    I think you've misunderstood what I'm saying. I don't for one minute expect the Home Cinema (especially using Spotify as a source) to hold a candle to the analogue system, that's not it's purpose. I'm very happy with the sound from the Home Cinema. The reason I've started this thread is not only because it sounds way better than I expected it to but also because I can't get my head around how it has improved so much with no change to the source or amplification. If I've had to work on the speakers and room to get this level of dynamics, how come the analogue could deliver it before. And how come when I plugged the Oppo into the Croft/Quads it didn't have the same dynamics
    Darren.
    Listening Room.
    UNDER CONSTRUCTION
    Turn Table. Garrard 401, Reso Mat, 2 Tier Slate Plinth, DIY Hadcock GH242, Nick G modded Lentek, Denon DL-103.
    Pre Amp. Croft Super Micro2. Power Amps Quad 405 Mono Blocks.
    Speakers. TBC

    Home Cinema.
    UNDER CONSTRUCTION
    DAC/Pre Amp. Denon AVC X3700H.
    BDP/Streamer. Panasonic DP-UB820EB / Apple TV4K.
    Display. Optoma UHD51 / DIY False Black Window Screen.
    Power Amps. 2 x Nakamichi AVP1.
    Front Speakers. DIY Baby Celestion Ditton 66. Surround Speakers. Celestion Ditton 11. Subwoofer. BK Electronics P12 300SB PR.

    Old Gallery. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...-of-the-70%92s

  4. #4
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

    Posts: 1,861
    I'm Dennis.

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    Can't really get a grip on this.

    Firstly with digital the tracks have often been remastered, and by those who do not have a feel for the original ethos, and there is also the compression involved in loudness wars to consider. But disregarding this I consider the medium to be intrinsically better than vinyl.

    Then there is the fact that probably all of us were imprinted with vinyl, and find its errors subconsciously pleasing because of familiarity.

    I also cannot understand why anyone thinks film sound is good. IMO speech is poorly recorded, and the wide dynamic range played with by the producers in a most artificial way, thus ruining its inherent potential.

  5. #5
    Join Date: Oct 2013

    Location: Wrexham

    Posts: 1,058
    I'm Darren.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    Can't really get a grip on this.

    Firstly with digital the tracks have often been remastered, and by those who do not have a feel for the original ethos, and there is also the compression involved in loudness wars to consider. But disregarding this I consider the medium to be intrinsically better than vinyl.

    Then there is the fact that probably all of us were imprinted with vinyl, and find its errors subconsciously pleasing because of familiarity.
    I think your point of nature versus nurture has real relevance, vinyl for me has only ever really been a nostalgia trip. I find that I predominantly prefer music on vinyl that was influenced by my parents and I was therefore familiar with hearing it from an analogue source. Having bought a number of albums on vinyl that I originally bought in my teenage years on CD, I am generally disappointed with the vinyl. This is not always the case, I have been blown away by how much more I have enjoyed some albums on vinyl that I knew intimately from CD, but this is the exception rather than the rule and as you say points more to mastering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    I also cannot understand why anyone thinks film sound is good. IMO speech is poorly recorded, and the wide dynamic range played with by the producers in a most artificial way, thus ruining its inherent potential.
    I completely understand where you're coming from. Obviously the better the system, the more it is capable of resolving the many channels that are now utilised in film sound tracks, but I agree that the sound can in many circumstances sound artificial and compromised. For me though it is the immersive environment that is created by a Home Cinema system that brings another dimension to the viewing experience. As I see it, it is not the job of a soundtrack to deliver Hi-Fi, but to create the illusion that you are in the scene and maybe this is the compromise that is made?
    Darren.
    Listening Room.
    UNDER CONSTRUCTION
    Turn Table. Garrard 401, Reso Mat, 2 Tier Slate Plinth, DIY Hadcock GH242, Nick G modded Lentek, Denon DL-103.
    Pre Amp. Croft Super Micro2. Power Amps Quad 405 Mono Blocks.
    Speakers. TBC

    Home Cinema.
    UNDER CONSTRUCTION
    DAC/Pre Amp. Denon AVC X3700H.
    BDP/Streamer. Panasonic DP-UB820EB / Apple TV4K.
    Display. Optoma UHD51 / DIY False Black Window Screen.
    Power Amps. 2 x Nakamichi AVP1.
    Front Speakers. DIY Baby Celestion Ditton 66. Surround Speakers. Celestion Ditton 11. Subwoofer. BK Electronics P12 300SB PR.

    Old Gallery. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...-of-the-70%92s

  6. #6
    Join Date: Feb 2013

    Location: W Lothian

    Posts: 99,005
    I'm Grant.

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    i will say speach in film with multi channels is poor in general to uncompressed mono or 2 channel. if you listen to the remastered old films done well you'll hear speach done right by masters.
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  7. #7
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,860
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    i will say speach in film with multi channels is poor in general to uncompressed mono or 2 channel. if you listen to the remastered old films done well you'll hear speach done right by masters.
    I would say I agree, but only because I dislike the 'surround sound' employed in modern cinemas. Sounds appearing to come from above or behind me I find annoying, despite the film maker's attempt at realism.

    Thus at home I simply use a "2.0" system comprising a pair of Bowers and Wilkins DM2a speakers fed by a Quad 520 power amplifier.
    Barry

  8. #8
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    what's the source for the home cinema?

    Sound quality starts at the source, i.e the recording, and nothing is equal there. Plus if we are talking TV channels the sound quality varies quite a bit. Some channels the SQ is very good now. I've heard sound effects on TV broadcasts that seem to come from a good 8 feet to the left or right of the loudspeaker, and that's with just 2 channels.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    In my case, the TV itself (either receiving a signal off the air, or fed from the DVD/Bluray player) via an HDMI to analogue converter.

    Not 'state of the art by any means', but works for me.

    Hearing sounds outside the confines of the speakers, or even of the walls of the room itself is nothing new: it all depends on how you have the speakers positioned.
    Barry

  10. #10
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,786
    I'm Martin.

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    It's nothing new but it does require a pretty high standard of broadcast quality before it happens.

    Speakers are just sat either side of screen, nothing special happening there.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

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