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Thread: Speaker re-wire and re-cap

  1. #21
    Join Date: Dec 2017

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    I'm charles.

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    Bump: http://www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/Th...yond-20kHz.pdf

    This white paper I linked to earlier explains all this and should be required reading. There is a whole bunch of info on how we hear and the workings of the ear/brain relationship which is simply amazing.

    This is really interesting stuff and I encourage all to read it. Max Townshend's thorough exploration has solid merit regardless of him being relegated to salesman status.

  2. #22
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sailor View Post
    Bump: http://www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/Th...yond-20kHz.pdf

    This white paper I linked to earlier explains all this and should be required reading. There is a whole bunch of info on how we hear and the workings of the ear/brain relationship which is simply amazing.

    This is really interesting stuff and I encourage all to read it. Max Townshend's thorough exploration has solid merit regardless of him being relegated to salesman status.
    The paper is not from Max Townsend it is from Dave Blackmer of Earthworks whose business is selling microphones that can transduce signals beyond 22 Khz. And it's completely anecdotal.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  3. #23
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    OK so Townshend did not write it but does that invalidate the paper? And in what way is this anecdotal?

    Have you read the paper??? I think not. I do not believe that anybody reading the vast amount of fact and research could possible misconstrue this as anecdotal.

  4. #24
    Join Date: Apr 2011

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    I'm matt.


  5. #25
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sailor View Post
    OK so Townshend did not write it but does that invalidate the paper? And in what way is this anecdotal?

    Have you read the paper??? I think not. I do not believe that anybody reading the vast amount of fact and research could possible misconstrue this as anecdotal.
    I read it some years ago but I did read it again. It quotes no research. It's just advertising copy.

    The reason you hear a difference with your super tweeters is because they are producing sound that is well into the audible range. Also you will probably have some comb filtering with the output of the standard tweeter that might also be audible. Your not hearing ultra sonics or the side effects of ultra sonics.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  6. #26
    Join Date: Apr 2012

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    If the output from a supertweeter is noticeably audible it has not been implemented correctly. The function should be to extend the treble output beyond/above that of the main tweeter, not to add to treble levels.
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

  7. #27
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    what is meant by a 'super tweeter' has changed over the years a bit though. Modern tweeters have no problem running flat to 20Khz, that wasn't always the case so if you wanted to spec your speaker as having full-range response 20hz to 20Khz you had to augment.

    Also I think in the UK you could avoid having to charge luxury tax if the speaker was 'professional' which meant it had to be a three-way (might be wrong about that)

    Plus the marketing angle = 'That one has a super tweeter, that one doesn't, the one with the extra driver must be better.'

    Now some people seem to think that it's only a super-tweeter if it is only doing super-sonics but I don't think there is any mainstream commercial speaker with a super tweeter like that. For example the JBL super tweeters that augment their compression drivers in the Everest et al are audible from 16khz IIRC.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  8. #28
    Join Date: Mar 2008

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    I'm inthescottishmafia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sailor View Post
    Hi Chris, the Jantzen cap you have chosen sounds great and is a nice upgrade over the SCR (Solen) in your photo. I can't see the rest of your XO but if it uses those white sand cast abominations for resistors then while you are at it replace them too. Mills 12W are good but not the only option. I see some wires crimped to a brass push-on lug. I recommend cutting the nasty thing off and soldering instead.

    Don't know if you are aware of this very informative/exhaustive cap collection review. I find it to be accurate regarding the caps I have tried.
    http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

    Do not be swayed by those who think reproduction of the very high frequencies are unimportant because they can't hear above say 14Khz. It's the higher order harmonics that contain much of the clues to the acoustic space and the placement of performers within that space.

    The higher frequencies when reproduced combined with the instrument's fundamental allow the ear/brain relationship to identify that instrument. If the harmonics are removed from some instruments like piano, sax or any other and are asked to play for example middle-C, what you will hear is a pure tone of 261.6 Hz. That is to say you will not be able to tell what is producing that annoying tone. When the instruments complex harmonics are added back to the fundamental you will then be able to recognise the instrument as a piano and the more complete the harmonics the more the piano sounds like a piano and the more delineated it becomes. This leads to less listener fatigue.

    In nature we tuned into these high frequencies as part of our survival mechanism. A sharp crack of branch or dry twig snapping would alert us to danger and also indicate the direction from which it may come. Now if all the old farts could not hear the top octave as part of the sound they would have all been eaten.

    Look up a white paper article by Max Townshend who is a proponent and producer of super-tweeters which respond up to about 60Khz or somewhere. Can't remember the title but something to do with 'Beyond 20Khz' A very important disclosure and a way of taking your sound beyond what cables and amp upgrades can achieve.

    The Miflex caps I have not heard so perhaps you would like to buy a pair of those as well so you can report back with your findings
    I've tried the Miflex caps and in fact use them on the tweeters in my Bastanis open baffles in the same manner ( ie a first order high pass crossover), albeit paralleled with a couple of others to get the correct value. I've also tried the Jantzen caps amongst many others. The Jantzen are nice caps but I don't agree that in this application they will be a significant upgrade. Like all caps they colour the sound each in their own characteristic way. It's just a matter of picking which flavour you prefer.

    There aren't any other crossover components BTW, the clue is in the words "Run full range"
    “Music has always been a matter of energy to me, a question of fuel. Sentimental people call it inspiration, but what they really mean is fuel. I have always needed fuel. I am a serious consumer. On some nights I still believe that a car with the gas needle on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio”

    Hunter S Thompson

  9. #29
    Join Date: Mar 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    what is meant by a 'super tweeter' has changed over the years a bit though. Modern tweeters have no problem running flat to 20Khz, that wasn't always the case so if you wanted to spec your speaker as having full-range response 20hz to 20Khz you had to augment.

    Also I think in the UK you could avoid having to charge luxury tax if the speaker was 'professional' which meant it had to be a three-way (might be wrong about that)

    Plus the marketing angle = 'That one has a super tweeter, that one doesn't, the one with the extra driver must be better.'

    Now some people seem to think that it's only a super-tweeter if it is only doing super-sonics but I don't think there is any mainstream commercial speaker with a super tweeter like that. For example the JBL super tweeters that augment their compression drivers in the Everest et al are audible from 16khz IIRC.
    Yep, and dependent on crossover slope, will have significant output lower than that, not to mention lower harmonics.
    “Music has always been a matter of energy to me, a question of fuel. Sentimental people call it inspiration, but what they really mean is fuel. I have always needed fuel. I am a serious consumer. On some nights I still believe that a car with the gas needle on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio”

    Hunter S Thompson

  10. #30
    Join Date: Dec 2017

    Location: limerick

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    I'm charles.

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    I think this is going off track.

    Ali Tait (arguing semantics?), part of your post: "but I don't agree that in this application they will be a significant upgrade" Please reread my post, I said 'a NICE upgrade, but lets wait and see if the owner reports back with the results. I also 'get it' that it is a full range plus a tweeter to augment the highs but also get it that it is seldom 2 very dissimilar drivers, a cone full range and dome tweeter have the same sensitivity and that resistors are usually required to achieve balance. I also did mention the word - - - if

    I did not mention nor regard the tweeter used in the Loth speakers as a super-tweeter, and was only referred to in relation to the link I supplied with the intention of bringing to light the fascinating way in which we perceive sound. It explains how and why a super-tweeter is beneficial even though the range of operation is way above humans' ability to directly hear those frequencies. The article also mentions how, paradoxically, a super-tweeter can improve the mids and bass as well.

    A lot of effort and great expense is lavished on this hobby and I provided the link which details another path to great sound, thinking it may be useful to some. Seems I was mistaken.

    My intent was to help as I do have a lot of experience with crossover design and the influence different caps have but it appears all I did was open up a path to have various members direct their efforts not so much to help the original poster but to rather pull apart my efforts!

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